![]() |
What follows is an archival copy of public information. Content herein is believed to be of historical interest to Delta Green fandom and should remain untouched, as a sign of respect for the original author(s). The article must be removed on request by copyright holders, if any. Please improve the wiki with living documents inspired by the ideas here. |
![]() |
The following material was imported from the Ice Cave. |
![]() |
A living document based on this material has been created at Christianity. |
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 02:26:07 EST
From: Mark McFadden
Several thoughts about the Order of the Sword of St. Jerome (Jerry's Kids!)
If I'm interpreting correctly, the OSSJ learns everything they can about the Mythos and Mythos magic, but absolutely, positively will not utilize Mythos magic. Am I correct?
If so, from their POV, any use of the tools of the Mythos would be a victory for the Mythos, and the first step towards (damnation?). Which would make them leery of DG or PISCES.
How does the Mythos fit into their cosmology? The Mythos ignores God, how does God feel about the Mythos? Did he create it? Is it from outside his Creation? (I am of course asking these questions from their POV) Does the OSSJ feel that Mythos evil originates with Satan? Do they feel the Mythos is evil, or merely toxic? Has the OSSJ reinterpreted Satan in light of the Mythos? Do they still believe in Satan? If they don't, do they pretend otherwise?
Is the OSSJ view of the Mythos the same as the Vatican's? Or does the Vatican take it's cues from the OSSJ on matters Mythos? Does the OSSJ conceal info from the Vatican?
And dammit, I lost the URL! Davide? A link in The Ice Cave?
While reading Vampire$, I had an idea. Small bands of Vatican financed mercenaries under the guidance of the OSSJ. For muscle. But here's the kicker: duty in these orgs is penance for terrorist/black ops sins. Earning an indulgence for IRA activity, or acts committed in Panama, or Iraq, or Afghanistan or wherever. A sort of Foreign Legion for Catholics. Now there's some angst I can sink my teeth into. I love the idea of an Irish 'Wild Geese' cell, for St. Patrick. Former RC SAS might be sent to the St. George cell.
Which is my next thread: national saints.
Patrick = Ireland
George = England
Andrew = Scotland
Lucia = Sweden (IIRC)
Joan = France (?)
hehe, I grew up in Naples, so I vote St. Mark for ALL of Italy! Cool name, too. (But I could be persuaded otherwise) and then I draw a blank.
And, just one more:
The Knights of St. Jude. DG operatives and friendlies that are essentially double agents. A small organization of Georgetown/Loyola trained Feds and friendlies that view the DG world from Jesuit trained eyes. They are a cabal within DG that A Cell doesn't know about. They don't trust Mythos magic or people who might practice it, even Good Guys. They view it as "fruit of the poison tree."
They are, of course, a serious risk to security, and their very existence is proof of a breach. They use tradecraft for their own communications and meets. They (probably) don't know each other's real identities or place in DG. They meet under Reservoir Dogs (RDog) protocols and their communications are managed by an unknown member who apparently has access to DG infrastructure info. And a line to the Vatican.
The first meeting of the Judes was a counterfeit Night At The Opera that turned out to be a Catholic retreat for agents and friendlies having a crisis of faith. Maybe three of them, five at most, no records were kept and no one admits being a founder. Need to know and all.
Reservations (and Op IDs) were made in the names of saints ala Simon Templar. The plan for the creation of the Knights was in the anonymous document package waiting for each guest. The printed agenda consisted of a summary of the Jude POV, a proposal to conspire, some suggestions on organization and procedures, assurance of communications support, and best wishes.
The greatest threat they pose to DG security involves the transfer of Mythos and DG knowledge amongst the Knights. With their separate agenda, they know things they wouldn't be privy to under normal protocols, either Fed or DG. Consequently, the Knights of St. Jude don't care about MJ, or Greys or whatever is behind them. On Jude Time. ETs are secular, and not on the Jude agenda. They do, however, care about ARCHINT. Or maybe A Cell knows about them, even founded them. Wheels within wheels. Maybe Andrea is Catholic.
Maybe I better just shut up.
Wary for flames, and I don't mean email.
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 19:53:16 +0100
From: Davide Mana
Mark is at it again ;>
Several thoughts about the Order of the Sword of St. Jerome (Jerry's Kids!)
As they are close to my heart, I'll post some comments.
The St.Jerome FAQ is taking shape.
If I'm interpreting correctly, the OSSJ learns everything they can about the Mythos and Mythos magic, but absolutely, positively will not utilize Mythos magic. Am I correct?
Sounds convincing.
But there could be different views among the high-ups in the Order.
[my NPC "Father Sabatini" is clearly a ruthless machiavellian bastard that would use any kind of weapon for his own ends]
If so, from their POV, any use of the tools of the Mythos would be a victory for the Mythos, and the first step towards (damnation?). Which would make them leery of DG or PISCES.
Call me a conservative fool but I guess that in the long run their point of view is correct - using the weapons of the Mythos brings you closer to the Mythos.
The great old ones want you to become like them, to teach you some new games, after all.
Anyway, the Order probably sees lay investigators (and investigator organizations) as meddling fools that can do more harm than good. The opinion is of course mutual.
How does the Mythos fit into their cosmology? The Mythos ignores God, how does God feel about the Mythos? Did he create it? Is it from outside his Creation? (I am of course asking these questions from their POV)
You wanna see me excommunicated, right?
Right.
Going the gnostic way, there should be a way to reconcile Mythos and Christianity, but I have not enough data (yet) to formulate a complete theory. I generally see the Order as rather pragmatic in its fight - God is out there but he won't come and solve your problems if you do not get at work on your own in the first place.
In the end the Order will triumph because they are Right. [in their POV, at least]
Does the OSSJ feel that Mythos evil originates with Satan? Do they feel the Mythos is evil, or merely toxic? Has the OSSJ reinterpreted Satan in light of the Mythos? Do they still believe in Satan? If they don't, do they pretend otherwise?
I found all priests (and arguably all Christians) believe in Satan - not in the horned-demon sense but in a more philosopical, abstract sense. The Order probably uses Satan as a general metaphore for the all-out refusal of God's Grace, and therefore sees the Mythos as a particularly concrete and active facet of the satan concept.
Maybe they have data to explain some satanic occurrences to actual Mythos activity. Most likely they leave the routine satanic events to plain vanilla Church authority.
Is the OSSJ view of the Mythos the same as the Vatican's? Or does the Vatican take it's cues from the OSSJ on matters Mythos? Does the OSSJ conceal info from the Vatican?
No No Yes (I think).
"The Vatican" is a rather fuzzy concept.
Let's say in general that the Catholoc church does not know about the Mythos, nor does the Vatican acknowledge the Mythos.
Some selected elements in the hierarchy know and pass the relevant cases on to the Order, but it's all a conspiracy, very DG like.
Maybe in the past it was different, but I honestly doubt it.
And dammit, I lost the URL! Davide?
For the Order's page, the URL is
http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/zenith/134/stjerome.htm
For the Vatican, there's a link from the St. Jerome "Odds & Ends" section.
A link in The Ice Cave?
Ask and it shall be given onto you.
I'll put up a short links collection including St.Jerome, Emerald Hammer, and so on in the cave as soon as possible.
While reading Vampire$, I had an idea.
Not a bad idea, too.
hehe, I grew up in Naples, so I vote St. Mark for ALL of Italy! Cool name, too. (But I could be persuaded otherwise)
Italy - St. Francis of Assisi (the one that talked with animals), and Saint Catherine of Siena (a female branch? Most terrorist hits in Italy in the '70s were carried out by women…).
Keep in mind that each Italian city has its own patron saint.
For Naples it is San Gennaro, for Turin St. John.
St. Mark is the patron of Venice - incidentally home of Italy's trade-mark carnival, a very serious, high-brow sort of thing that was once compared by a writer to "a masque in the carcass of a colossal dying animal".
Suggestive, eh?
I won't go into the Knights of St.Jude thing, but St.Jude is clearly Delta Green patron saint - and probably St.Jerome code/slang to indicate delta greeners is "the St. Jude chorus".
Just an idea, of course.
End of rant.
Let's see what else comes out of this.
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 18:13:38 EST
From: Mark McFadden
Mark is at it again ;
Get thee behind me Lizard!
As they are close to my heart, I'll post some comments. The St.Jerome FAQ is taking shape.
They aren't just close to your heart, their yours. You did the work. IMHO.
Call me a conservative fool but I guess that in the long run their point of view is correct - using the weapons of the Mythos brings you closer to the Mythos.
Just looking for those fundamental differences in interpretation that make Catholic history so confusing.
Going the gnostic way, there should be a way to reconcile Mythos and Christianity, but I have not enough data (yet) to formulate a complete theory.
Thomas Aquinas didn't need no stinkin' data. There's a war on, souls are at stake. We need answers now, not some rooty-poo Franciscan hemming and hawing. Get me a Dominican, now! ;-)
I generally see the Order as rather pragmatic in its fight - God is out there but he won't come and solve your problems if you do not get at work on your own in the first place. In the end the Order will triumph because they are Right.
That's more like it. Damn ivory tower theologians, counting angels dancing on pinheads while the world collapses on their heads.
I found all priests (and arguably all Christians) believe in Satan - not in the horned-demon sense but in a more philosopical, abstract sense. The Order probably uses Satan as a general metaphore for the all-out refusal of God's Grace, and therefore sees the Mythos as a particularly concrete and active facet of the satan concept. Maybe they have data to explain some satanic occurrences to actual Mythos activity. Most likely they leave the routine satanic events to plain vanilla Church authority.
Damn straight. Write up procedures and best practices, give them marching orders and a chain-of-command and pack them off to the wars. Have faith, be strong, and we'll handle the theology.
No No Yes (I think).
Works for me.
Italy - St. Francis of Assisi
Francis? Ol' Blue Eyes? Chairman of the Board? Well, he did it his way.
For Naples it is San Gennaro, for Turin St. John. St. Mark is the patron of Venice -
Oooops. Youthful confusion. The emblem for the NATO base in Naples was the Lion of St. Mark.
I'm personally tickled by Gennaro being the patron saint of Naples. Don Gennaro, in Castaneda's Don Juan books was a great character (fictional or otherwise). "When Don Gennaro shits the mountains tremble."
Venice - incidentally home of Italy's trade-mark carnival, a very serious, high-brow sort of thing that was once compared by a writer to "a masque in the carcass of a colossal dying animal". Suggestive, eh?
Yeah. Venice reeks of yellow royalty. The Bridge of Sighs.
I won't go into the Knights of St.Jude thing, but St.Jude is clearly Delta Green patron saint
That was the original inspiration. I suspect I shouldn't have gone into it either.
It was an Imaginary Tale! You know, like "The Day Superman Married Supergirl"?
"What If: Peter Parker Had Been Bitten By A Mosquito"?
No?
It was a training exercise! A scenario predicated on a possible….ah hell. I was drunk! Yeah, that's it. I'm better now. Really. What was I thinking?
Actually, I was musing about HPL's "racist" themes and how to bring them into DG. Fear of strangers. Distrust of other agendas.
Examples:
Doyle made Mormons downright scary in the Sherlock Holmes adventure "The Eight Orange Pips."
In "To Live and Let Die," Fleming had every Negro porter, janitor, conductor, or bellhop a potential agent for Mr. Big.
In "Apt Pupil," King makes much of the theory that each and every Jew is a potential Mossad resource. Just waiting to be activated.
During his Presidential campaign, Kennedy had to publicly address the accusation that a Roman Catholic President would have divided loyalties, and would take orders from the Pope.
Xenophobia is an occupational hazard in DG.
From: Shoggoth
Which is my next thread: national saints.
Santiago = Spain
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 08:29:38 -0500
From: "Eric Brennan"
Going the gnostic way, there should be a way to reconcile Mythos and Christianity, but I have not enough data (yet) to formulate a complete theory. I generally see the Order as rather pragmatic in its fight - God is out there but he won't come and solve your problems if you do not get at work on your own in the first place.
Go with an explanation I've always favored…It's stolen from the Invisibles, which stole it from Mithraism (or Zoroastranism, it's Monday morning and for the life of me I'm blanking on this one…) That myth stated that God (Ahuramazda) created the Universe as a perfect place of Order, trying to trap all of the bad unformed things from a previous creation (the Great Old Ones, though in the original myth it was the antithesis of God.) Seeing this perfection, the GOO went into this Universe, where God slammed shut the doors, trapping the bad guys in here with us. So yes God created the Universe, and yes God created us…but we're basically sacrificial lambs for Him to get rid of the garbage. It's too early for me to flesh this out more, though, but feel free to tell me what you think.
Date: 22 Mar 1999 13:44:14 GMT
From: "Jacob Busby Bsc."
Which is my next thread: national saints.
(List of Saints snipped)
You missed David as the patron Saint of Wales.
Going the gnostic way, there should be a way to reconcile Mythos and Christianity, but I have not enough data (yet) to formulate a complete theory.
How about the following rationalisation for OSSJ beliefs in both the Mythos and faith in Christ:
To be a Chistian is to believe in Christ and repent of your sins. Satan wishes for humanity to be damned, therefore works to keep humanity away from learning the truth Jesus' death on the cross and its effects on our lives.
As any magician knows illusion is mainly about misdirection, ergo create a false religion or pantheon (ie. The Mythos) and you'll keep people away from the real action (ie. the saving grace of Christ, communion with the Father and the power of the Holy Spirit) Consequently the Mythos is born, acting both as a false religion and as a tool for Satan to spread evil in the world. The fact that the Mythos doesn't mention God is deliberate and does not imply that God doesn't exist.
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 20:19:19 +0100
From: Heiko Aulbach
with us. So yes God created the Universe, and yes God created us…but we're basically sacrificial lambs for Him to get rid of the garbage. It's too early for me to flesh this out more, though, but feel free to tell me what you think.
That reminds me of a story/movie I've read/seen a while ago, perhaps one of you knows it's name?
I can only remember the (for me) most important statement in it:(re-translated to english)
Yes, there is a hell. But don't be afraid, you're already there!
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 11:19:41 -0800
From: Mark Williamson
On the subject of the Devil and evil - the Vatican recently declared that they were chaning their doctrine on the devil. They declared the devil was no longer a taditional personified demon (which was how the Catholic church had always perceived him/it), but rather a general force which encourges people to commit evil deeds. Which sounds a lot like Cthulhu's dreams influcing us all.
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 13:42:06 -1000
From: Jay Dugger
Long ago and far away I read an article in TUO6 describing The Last Dawn. The Last Dawn is an underground Catholic splinter sect with strong Mythos ties. They know about the "great uglies" and interpret them as God's way of scaring humanity into obedience.
I admit that's rather vague, but my copy of TUO6 isn't handy. I'm not sure excerpting that paragraph and posting it to the list is fair use anyway.
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 19:39:58 -0500 (EST)
From: "Andrew D. Gable"
Someone (damn…failing memory! he said in a Capt. Kirk voice) wrote:
Going the gnostic way, there should be a way to reconcile Mythos and Christianity, but I have not enough data (yet) to formulate a complete theory.
Didn't the Gnostics have a god called Acamoth (Azathoth?) or something, who was a sort of uncaring creator? I think the Gnostic's main idea was that once the universe was created, God stepped back and basically forgot about us. (And hey, they came up with Ouroboros, the coolest symbol of all time.)
And then on Mar. 22, Jacob Busby Bsc. wrote a bunch of stuff I've snipped. He knows what it was, though.
I really like this idea. The Mythos doesn't really exist. Sure, there's Starspawn, and Byakhee, and Mi-go, hell, even Greys, but no Cthulhu, Yog-Sothoth, etc. The whole system was created by Satan (read: Nyarlathotep).
Maybe the GOOs and OGs exist only as personifications of how low we can really sink. A worshipper of Azathoth's just someone who got their brain fried by radioactivity and spends their days talking to walls and occasionally whooping some ass. There's no Daoloth, the "rending of the veils" is just what happens when you drop too much acid. Shub-Niggurath is merely a personification of sexual deviance and basically being a slut.
This gets at the edges of Derleth and Lumley's "comic-book" view of the Mythos, with Elder Gods and elemental theory and all, but when you think about it, the above doesn't lessen the horror any more. If you ask me, it heightens it. What people do because they *think* a god told them to is just as scary as what they do *because* a god told them to — maybe even moreso.
Or maybe they do exist, and they're all just avatars of Nyarlathotep. So the Jeromite's view on things is correct -- the GOOs, OGs, all them *are* Satan. Because Satan is Nyarlathotep, and they're all parts of Nyarlathotep.
Maybe I should use this space to explain that I am a Christian, and I was always a bit uncomfortable with the whole Mythos philosophy of hopelessness. I never really appreciated Derleth's elaborations, either, though, and always tried to come up with a Mythos that was more "upbeat," if you will, but still maintained the original horror level.
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 01:06:24 EST
From: Mark McFadden
You missed David as the patron Saint of Wales.
Isn't that Dafydd or Ddaefydd or Ddaffydd or something? Surely it can't be plain old David? ;)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 09:47:23 GMT0BST
From: Robert Thomas
Isn't that Dafydd or Ddaefydd or Ddaffydd or something? Surely it can't be plain old David? ;)
Its David, or in Welsh - Ddewi Sant as in the phrase:
Dathlu Dydd Gwyl Ddewi
'Celebrate St David's day' March 1st if anyone's that interested.
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 14:34:44 +0900
From: "David Farnell"
Andrew Gable wrote:
Didn't the Gnostics have a god called Acamoth (Azathoth?) or something, who was a sort of uncaring creator?
Not sure about that name, but the question of whether the Creator was uncaring or not is an important issue in Gnostic thought. The more traditional explanation I've read is that there is God, and there is the Creator. The Creator (usually called the Demiurge) is flawed, possibly crazy, and created this flawed world for his own amusement and self-aggrandizement. He pretends to be God and may even believe it. He may even care about us, but as he is not omnipotent, omniscient, and/or omnibenevolent, he's always failing in his attempts to make life better for us.
We are eternal spirits who were once part of the real God's court. He wants to help us return, but for some reason he can't simply destroy this world and take us back. We have to find the way ourselves. The real God has sent at least one Savior to help us find the way—perhaps several. However, organized religions generally spring up around these Saviors and lead the mind in the wrong direction. Virtually all religions worship the Demiurge, mistaking him for the true God.
[Please note that this is just what I've read, and my studies haven't specialized in Gnosticism. Also, Gnostic theology is a quagmire, with lots of disagreement over crucial points.]
I really like this idea. The Mythos doesn't really exist. Sure, there's Starspawn, and Byakhee, and Mi-go, hell, even Greys, but no Cthulhu, Yog-Sothoth, etc.
Well, we already have the horror of people doing what they think gods are telling them to do, even if we keep the GOO. The GOO usually aren't giving any real instructions to their followers, and that is a big part of the horror—it's often just humans acting out their basest desires and calling it god-ordained. (Part of the reason that's so horrifying is that we see it all the time, especially in war.) But getting rid of the GOO…well, you're pretty much playing in _Millenium_ then, not the Mythos. Which is OK, but you're off into whole other realms there.
Or maybe they do exist, and they're all just avatars of Nyarlathotep. So the Jeromite's view on things is correct — the GOOs, OGs, all them *are* Satan. Because Satan is Nyarlathotep, and they're all parts of Nyarlathotep.
Actually, I really thought about this one before, but had Azathoth as the only true Mythos diety. Everything else is merely a reflection of It, all the major ones anyway. Yog-Sothoth, Nyarlathotep, Shub-Niggurath, maybe Hastur and Cthulhu--they're all just avatars of Azathoth. They may not even know it--and Azathoth may not, either. They might just be dream-projections.
But how about alien races? Star Spawn, Mi-Go, Byakhee--I'd make them real, and semi-independent. But they've been taken in, made part of the Azathoth (Satan=Shaitan=The Adversary) group-mind. Possibly superbeings like Cthulhu were once independent, but have achieved a fusion with the Azathoth group-mind, and are now truly a part of Azathoth (but sort of the reverse of an avatar). Humans are just another race, but we haven't succumbed yet. Is there another group-mind, aka God? Can we join that before we are wiped out (rise of the GOO=The Rapture--we're doomed, physically, but we can save ourselves spiritually).
Of course, you're left with that thorniest of religious questions: if God is perfect, why doesn't He just kick Satan's butt? I'm not trying to be flippant or offensive, really—it's a question that must at least be considered, if not answered, if God is to exist in CoC.
Maybe I should use this space to explain that I am a Christian, and I was always a bit uncomfortable with the whole Mythos philosophy of hopelessness.
And I should explain that I'm very much non-religious, but always willing to explore new ideas for game purposes (and just for the intellectual exercise). So I hope I didn't give any offense anywhere above.
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 00:03:56 -0600 (CST)
From: Tenebrous Technologies
Andrew Gable wrote:
(And hey, they came up with Ouroboros, the coolest symbol of >all time.)
Ah yes, the serpent biting its tail. I think that comes from a lot of mythologies. In Norse mythology it is the Midgard Serpent, that circles the world. A most excellent device for m'man Yig.
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 09:09:02 PST
From: "Adam Marler"
Ah yes, the serpent biting its tail. I think that comes from a lot of mythologies. In Norse mythology it is the Midgard Serpent, that circles the world. A most excellent device for m'man Yig.
Also, the greeks had a mythological snake that had two heads, it would grasp its head in its other head, then roll down hills and stuff. I think that thats the actual influence for the symbol.
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 22:59:32 -0500 (EST)
From: The Man in Black
Reptiles such as moc.loa|ioRdraziL#moc.loa|ioRdraziL should be tenderized by repeated blows to the head and groin before serving. Spice to flavor:
Isn't that Dafydd or Ddaefydd or Ddaffydd or something? Surely it can't be plain old David? ;)
I think it's actually St. Daffy Duck, who also covers lunacy and greed.
Mark McFadden
I'm so ashamed
You should be; Youuuu'rrre Desssthpicable!
PS: Insert your own B5 Garibaldi reference here.
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 23:06:53 -0500 (EST)
From: The Man in Black
To make David Farnell sushi, use the choicest cuts from the rump. Heavy amounts of wasabi (green) is recommended to kill the gamey flavor:
Of course, you're left with that thorniest of religious questions: if God is perfect, why doesn't He just kick Satan's butt?
Actually the Free-Will Theory explains all that. According to the theory, God wants his creations (including Satan) to have Free Will, to kick Satan's butt would interfere with freedom (and thus be a sin I suppose). This also explains why God allows Evil to exist. Evil is caused by the exercise of free will in violation of God's will.
PLUG: Join the Forces of Evil (F.O.E.) and be Evil. It's Fun!
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 14:27:26 +0900 (JST)
From: Jay and Mikiko
This also explains why God allows Evil to exist. Evil is caused by the exercise of free will in violation of God's will.
What a coincidence: I also define 'evil' as 'people doing what I don't want them to do'. It's nice to know that God and I are so similar. :)
Jay (whose currently listening to the rumble of thunder)
zap!
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 02:08:13 +0100
From: root
David Farnell wrote:
But how about alien races?
Really a good choice…. Join the Great Old Ones or Join the Great Old Others…
Should the Humankind surrender to the Mind-Group called of the GOO , or fligth to gain
it's place in the Mind-Group of Yaveh (or Ala ,or whatever they are called)?.
And .. yes..this could made an interesting plot…
What about Jesus being the Avatar of that Mind-Group of Yaveh , and Juan / Nyarlathotep the Avatar of the Mind-Group of Azathoth.?
What are the TRUE evil plans of the Jesus mission?
Are they here?
What are they doing?
Is anything we can call GOOD (not God) in the Universe?
Is this the answer to the incapacity of "God" to kick the Ass of Satan?
It's like in my little sessions of Paranoia..the choice between the Horrible or the Terrible
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 05:07:53 EST
From: Dave K.
First off, wanted to apologize. I planned on having my post concerning several errors and so on posted awhile ago. Some of life's tragedies have intervened and I've been behind on everything. They should be posted within the next few days. i hope everybody enjoys…Managed to get several posts up now, though on various subjects. Here goes the first one:
The method that I have always used concerning God in CoC/DG is that God exists, but not as we have come to believe in him. God exists in a portion of the Dreamlands, a creation of millions of people believing in something over a thousand years. The area he inhabits has come to take on an "Eden" or Paradise aspect, again reflecting a human dream view of Heaven. He has a vested interest in seeing humanity survive as long as possible (without humans to dream of him, will he eventually cease to exist?). He as very limited powers in our reality, sometimes summoning up powers for a "sign" or something. He communicates occasionally with some of the faithful through dreams/visions from the Dreamlands. Some of the miracles, such as weeping statues and the like, are merely areas where the boundaries between our reality and the Dreamlands have weakened, allowing physical manifestations.
The truly faithful can ascend to this portion of the Dreamlands after to death, but this is based on the strength of their beliefs and not on the concept of sin. Thus, in this reality, a suicidal car bomber who has total devotion to God or a Mother Theresa type will find himself in a Dreamlands paradise, while a cynical, lip-service only priest/preacher/whatever will find his soul consigned to oblivion. The number of the saved will obviously be quite small. Near-death experiences also allow a quick peak at this realm due to the soul traveling between realities, even if it is only briefly. This region can be reached by travel through the Dreamlands but the journey is ridiculously long and hard, so few have made it. This region, also, ignores the usual rules for entering the Dreamlands, since it is usually only the souls of the dead that pass into it and not dreamers. God does oppose the GOO/OG, but is very limited in power and no match for them directly (he is, after all, the creation of human dreams and beliefs). He will sometimes pass on some spell knowledge in visions to the faithful; these are used to simulate miracles, faith healing and so on.
Stealing a page from John Carpenter's Prince of Darkness, I have had Jesus be an alien, come to attempt to warn humanity about the GOO/OGs (although, another intriguing idea, from TUO, I believe, was Jesus as an avatar of Nyarlathotep). The disciples were human followers (his inner circle/network).
Many others followed him and cultists within Judea and the Romans performed his crucifixion.
Satan has always been just a varied human perception to various GOO/OGs. The demons and devils of all human societies are just the human way of coming to terms with mythos influences and encounters. That is one of the reasons the concept of Satan has changed throughout history. As mankind, under the influences of Christianity, Islam, and Judaism encountered the mythos in various manifestations or influences, its ideas about his structure/being have changed.
That is why in my campaign world, the one group that has the biggest grasp of the big picture is the Vatican. I have developed (this was pre-DG and St. Jerome) a Vatican network that investigates and deals with mythos threats. The original founders knew much of the mythos and when they compiled the Bible, they heavily hid the true mythos connections in the Old Testament underneath parables and metaphor. When deciding the Gospels to include in the New Testament, they heavily edited the four included, hiding the true texts of all of them in their collection. Many of the Church's actions throughout the centuries have been attempts to counter the mythos. Though they often had unplanned or unexpected consequences. Recently, the Church has been making small overtures and bonding some connections to various other religions and government organizations to expose the mythos, gain allies and fight the good fight. St. Jerome, when it came out, was incorporated as a radical off-shoot of this, while DG is somewhat known and viewed as a potential ally (I have a lot more on all of this but that's the overview). Basically, when incorporating God into CoC/DG universe, go with what you feel is right and what works for your group. Every writer that has written mythos and every CoC group has its own style, worldview and prejudices. Everyone has created their own view of what the CoC universe is like, some attempting purism and some going off in radical directions. King, in The Stand, obviously has some connection to God opposing Randall Flagg/Nyarlathotep and it fits. Experiment. If it ends up working, great. If it doesn't, chalk one up for experience. Everybody's style is different.
I hope that this was of interest to some of you out there.
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 16:58:07 -0500 (EST)
From: "Andrew D. Gable"
The area he inhabits has come to take on an "Eden" or Paradise aspect, again reflecting a human dream view of Heaven.
Interesting idea. Very, very interesting idea. The fall from Eden was a sort of "banishing" of the human spirit from this Dreamlands area to the physical world.
This certainly explains how a mass of Shoggoth-matter evolved into the dominant race on the planet. This conjures up a rather interesting question, considering these ideas on God's place in the Mythos: what was said mass of Shoggoth-matter resembling *before* the Fall? Did it naturally take human form, or was the will of God influencing it subtlely from the Dreamlands? Could the Proto-shoggoths (in Ye Booke of Monstres II) be the original humans? Perhaps our friends at Majestic-12 are exceedingly eager to get their paws on a Proto-shoggoth.
BTW, doesn't the COC book say that the Hounds of Tindalos were somehow mixed up in the Fall?
We've discussed in the past how the main reason (at least, one of them) that the Mi-go are interested in humankind is our ability to access the Dreamlands. For those of you just crying out for an RL use for these thoughts on a Dreamlands home for God, consider the following.
In the 1950s and into the 1960s, France was beset with a wave of UFO sightings, CE-3s, abductions, etc. Now—France is historically an extremely religious country. Given the above, religious people=people with strong Dreamlands connections. If the Mi-go are really interested in the human-Dreamland interface, wouldn't it make sense to abduct religious types? Perhaps this accounts for the unusually high number of BVM (read: disguised UFO) phenomena in France.
All of these ideas are very interesting. If the author doesn't mind, I may incorporate them into the Tuchulcha Mythos; they tie in nicely with recent ideas I've been having on the direction that'll take.
he is, after all, the creation of human dreams
Note the underlined. God, essentially, is Hypnos? Hypnos seems to fit the persona given to God in the above: pretty tough magically, but physically a wuss.
underneath parables and metaphor. When deciding the Gospels to include in the New Testament, they heavily edited the four included, hiding the true texts of all of them in their collection.
Hence, an explanation for some of the Apocrypha. And howzabout Revelation? There's some pretty Mythos stuff in there.
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 14:49:20 +0900
From: "David Farnell"
Before dinner time (Try Grilled Cajun Blackened Man in Black—ooooowheeee,
dat's goooood stuff!), the MiB wrote:
Actually the Free-Will Theory explains all that.
Oh, well, that solves everything! ;-) Way too pat. And I know, you don't buy it either. I'm not going to go into a long refutation, so I'll just toss out a pat one: The Crusades. Anyway, this list ain't for debating religious doctrine, so I'll drop it there. I just brought it up because, if God has the Big Three attributes (omnipotence, omniscience, and omnibenevolence), He and the Mythos have a hard time coexisting—for game purposes, the Keeper has to think about all those thorny issues. Not necessarily resolve them, but consider them well, because they'll likely come up.
But then Dave K. came up with the Dreamlands God. At first I wasn't sure if I liked it, but as I thought about it more, I like it more and more. Certainly you'd think the common wishes of billions of people would create a Heaven in the Dreamlands. And a God—perhaps starting out as Yahweh and evolving, partly on His own and partly in response to people's desires. (see Armstrong, _A History of God_) Feedback both ways. A God who can't just change everything with a word, but Who sincerely wants to help us.
This solves a lot of conceptual problems. It allows God into the game without any Deus ex machina stuff. The different interpretations of God all over the world are easily explained by the fact that God communicates through dreams, and dreams are a very tricky medium. Back to the perception thread, memories of dreams are highly subject to distortion and info loss (and why is that, anyway?). Not just the Judeo-Christian/Islamic group, but Hindu and many other pagan religions can come out of this. The most basic "deity" of Hindu is simply God--all those others, even the big 3 (Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva) are merely 3 faces of God (yes, most Hindus don't know that, but it really is part of the cosmology--hey, most Christians don't understand the Holy Spirit, either). The same is true in many Native American cosmologies (at least, I know it's true of the Oglala Sioux and the Aztecs--I admit I don't know details of many others). So, receiving messages through dreams, holy dreamers perceive God much in keeping with their conditioned expectations. And they interpret Him (or Her, or It) as being much more powerful than He really is, of course--that's only natural. And they also distort in other ways, and forget important bits, and so you get one band of worshippers attacking another band as heretics.
And all the while the GOO worshippers are subverting the society.
Actually, near-atheist that I am, I really like this. Handled right, it can make things much scarier. It gives the players hope…and there's nothing scarier than the risk of having hope snatched away. (And, with the Red Knight stuff of the MiB's, "storming the gates of heaven" takes on a new meaning!)
(Please, once again, I don't want to insult anyone's beliefs. I know this is all hideously heretical. I have a deep respect for people with deeply held, honest, well-thought-out religious beliefs—and for people with equally-well-thought-out agnostic and atheistic beliefs. I'm just talking about this stuff for gaming purposes.)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 15:27:28 +0900
From: "David Farnell"
Interesting idea. Very, very interesting idea. The fall from Eden was a sort of "banishing" of the human spirit from this Dreamlands area to the physical world.
That's a good idea, too, though not what Dave K. (not to be confused with SuperDave, nope, nosirree) had in mind. This here has more in common with that Gnostic thread earlier. But I like it, too. This human spirit could be powerful in its own right, but is trapped by the feeble flesh (I hope you're seeing shades of K'n Yan--who shaped that flesh?). Now, are we talking a single human spirit (fragmented into all of us, Blake-like, with God perhaps being the biggest chunk and the one left behind in Heaven), or thousands (a small number of Elect--the rest can never be saved), or billions (everyone an individual, quite powerful spiritual being).
BTW, doesn't the COC book say that the Hounds of Tindalos were somehow mixed up in the Fall?
Very interesting…I'll have to give this a lot more thought. I wish I could find more stories about the Hounds—it feels like there's a rich vein to mine on that.
If the Mi-go are really interested in the human-Dreamland interface, wouldn't it make sense to abduct religious types?
Maybe. This could tie in with the perception thread again. Just as artists and writers develop an alternate perception (I can still conjure up the "artist's eye" I developed after 4 years of fine arts schooling), others could too. Mathematicians, for example—not the same as the artists, etc, but different from the usual. Mystics, too, I imagine. Musicians, too.
Now, this alternate perception has an important effect. You're stuck in a body that is meant as a prison, right? (According to the BoYS, we owe the Sky Devils for that one, but it could have been the Elder Things, Nyarlathotep, or any number of things along the way, probably more than one.) It's designed to limit us (why? save it for another post). But when we develop these other ways of perceiving reality, we break free just a little. Then what happens? Mystics see gods and angels, normally invisible. Mathematicians see the fourth dimension. Artists gain a clarity of the world that can shock them into revelation. Writers find connections that lead to terrifying conclusions.
And all of them start to intercept the Dreamings of the deities that inhabit our cosmos. Cthulhu and Hastur aren't trying to communicate with us—we're just overhearing their dreams and interpreting them as communications. God might be trying to communicate with us, but we can't hear Him without a change in thought-processing.
Wow. This has an impact on a lot of other threads. That whole Byakhee thing--Hastur doesn't care a bit about decadent artists. They're just the ones who hear him best, because of a fluke in our flawed little meat-brains. That means the Byakhee-as-Hastur-cultists doesn't imply the Byakhee were any kind of decadent genetic artists or anything--there was just a flaw in their brains (or hunes?) that made them receptive to Hastur's vibe. The King in Yellow (the play and the person)? An avatar created by our telepathic feedback, unconsciously spawned by Hastur when we need him.
This gives me much to think about. Joy!
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 07:19:06 -0500
From: Steven Kaye
This certainly explains how a mass of Shoggoth-matter evolved into the dominant race on the planet.
Lovecraft and pals actually offered several possible origins for mankind - the results of an Elder Thing experiment allowed to run wild ("At the Mountains of Madness"), brought down from the stars with Cthulhu ("The Mound"), evolved from serpent men (!) in Clark Ashton Smith's "Ubbo-Sathla."
BTW, doesn't the COC book say that the Hounds of Tindalos were somehow mixed up in the Fall?
Frank Belknap Long's "The Hounds of Tindalos" postulates the origin of the Hounds as being the true event that the Fall was an allegory for. A mysterious deed was done long ago - the Hounds of Tindalos came into existence, craving that in mankind which is still pure.
And have any Mythos authors picked up on the following line from "The Dunwich Horror":
"Things like that brought down the beings those Whateleys were so fond of - the beings they were going to let in tangibly to wipe out the human race and drag the earth off to same nameless place for some nameless purpose."
Which brings up the question of whether the Earth has always been in this universe - perhaps part of "the Fall" was the dropping of Earth into its current universe?
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 16:11:34 EST
From: Mark McFadden
Lovecraft and pals actually offered several possible origins for mankind - the results of an Elder Thing experiment allowed to run wild ("At the Mountains of Madness"), brought down from the stars with Cthulhu ("The Mound"), evolved from serpent men (!) in Clark Ashton Smith's "Ubbo-Sathla."
I vote for all three. You're not seriously trying to tell me that ALL of mankind, every separate race, are descended from some losers in an African valley? C'mon, get real. That's like saying Chihuahuas are descended from wolves.
"The diversity of human form is obviously due to miscegenation and mongrelization between separate races. Those mud peop…er…cultures that don't value their precious bodily fluids will inevitably debase to a generic human-like creature suitable for manual labor, but without the divine spark of Destiny.
We of the North, forged by lightning-borne fire and tempered by the Ice Ages, are obviously the most advanced and pure of the races of Man. Providence provided us with natural barriers to mongrelization: formidable mountains and rivers of ice to keep the soft, thin-blooded degenerates of the South from polluting our bloodline.
Where they lazed in the sun, gorging on the fruits of the fertile land; we wrested a living from a hostile environment. We fought our way to the top of the food chain as they played in the "Circle of Life."
Of course they resent us. Their ancestors took an easy path and sentenced them to mediocrity. So long as they fear us, their resentment is moot."
Excerpt from the forward to the Cliff Notes "Mein Triumph" by Mark "Lebensraum" McFadden
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 22:46:44 +0100
From: Ward Phil
Hey this is a change, I'm actually here at a time when I can converse in almost real-time with you guys :)
So, Lizard King, got any more of this rather excellent nazi nonsense? And can I use them for EH ?
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 23:09:16 EST
From: Dave K
I'm always open to bribes :) I don't have a web site. Some of this stuff is part of a personal project that I was preparing to see if Pagan had any interest. If you can give me a little time to take it from my notes and get it on-line, I'd love to share it.