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Main thread
Date: 27 Oct 1998 15:30:21 GMT
From: "Jacob Busby Bsc." <ku.vog.stnah|BJCDTI#ku.vog.stnah|BJCDTI>
Time for a new topic. Anybody out there in delta-green list-land know anything about the Freemasons and masonic lodges? Do they have a lot of influence within the (British) police force and judiciary or is this just a common social rumor? What is the history behind this group? What secrets (if any) lie behind their closed doors?
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 09:24:53 -0500
From: "Duran Goodyear"
I forget the details, but isn't the new airport in Denver (or some other Midwest city) that has had so much trouble opening recently covered with Masonic ruins, and symbols…
There was an interesting web site on it… which I now don't remember… (of course)
Does any one (have any idea what I'm talking about) have any information on this….
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 14:54:27 +0000
From: Phil Ward <pj.oc.ynos.ue.dcp|drawp#pj.oc.ynos.ue.dcp|drawp>
I forget the details, but isn't the new airport in Denver (or some other midwest city) that has had so much trouble opening recently covered with Masonic ruins, and symbols… Does any one (have any idea what I'm talking about) have any information on this….
Yep, I remember that, give me an evening, and I'll dig the URL out.
Also, it might be in the ICE cave, I'm fairly sure I submitted it under the title mythos around the world…..
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 21:23:24 -0500 (EST)
From: "Andrew D. Gable"
I'll preface this reply by saying that I am familiar with the story you're talking about; yes, the airport was in Denver, or should I say a bit NE of it.
I forget the details, but isn't the new airport in Denver (or some other Midwest city) that has had so much trouble opening recently covered with Masonic ruins, and symbols…
Had trouble opening? Could someone post details on this? I'm not 100% familiar with the REAL story (only the conspiratorial one).
There was an interesting web site on it… which I now don't remember… (of course)
I've found this on the web, also. Know which site it's on, but can't remember the URL (damn!). Will post here when I can get it.
It was quite a piece of conspiratorial stuff…
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 10:10:11 -0600
From: Shane Ivey
Wheee! That's another big one. The internet is loaded with websites that will tell you every legend and theory you want to hear about Masonic groups, from the Templar history beloved by Eco to modern theories of Satanism at the secret upper levels of the lodges. As was mentioned a couple of weeks ago, the P-2 Masonic Lodge in and after WW2 was seen by many as a critical secret juncture between the US government, the Nazis, European financiers, and the Vatican. I would LOVE to see or write some DG stories or a campaign exploring that history and its possible implications on Majestic and the original Karotechia; I like the idea of the modern "three old geezers in the jungle" Karotechia trying to use international terrorist groups and occult societies with political connections to regain some of the influence of the original Karotechia and some of the secrets that were stolen and extrapolated by the Majestic group in PAPERCLIP and (possibly) HIGHJUMP, and then running into the true powers-that-be that are indeed connected by the "Illuminati" networks of Bilderberger influence-peddlers and one-world UN manipulators… And that's not even getting into the Mi-Go and the Elder Things and the Witch-cults and the Cult of Transcendence. Maybe when I win the lottery and don't have to work anymore I'll try to write it. :P Unless Glancy & co. want to give it a go …
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 11:41:56
From: Davide Mana
Jacob Busby opened a whole new, king-sized can of worms by writing
Time for a new topic. Anybody out there in delta-green list-land know anythingabout the Freemasons and masonic lodges? Do they have a lot of influence within the (British) police force and judiciary or is this just a common socialrumour? What is the history behind this group? What secrets (if any) lie behind their closed doors?
ok
I'll start with a short skeptical recap of the organization (for more on the Mystic side, Shane has already posted some good hints, and much more can be found online).
Freemasonry as we know it today (by some called Speculative Freemasonry) is essentially the evolution of the old masons guilds of medieval times (what is called Operative Freemasonry), said evolution consisting in the attachment of mystical or "mythological" meanings to what were essentially trade initiation rituals and procedures.
The transition occurred in the early 18th century, as the need for guilds was disappearing and these organizations had to find another ecological niche to occupy.
Alberto Bracco, in his "La Massoneria in Piemonte" writes: "'La Massoneria', also known as Royal Art or Free Masonry, is an initiatic institution. Its members call themselves 'Sons of the Widow' and call each other 'Brother'.
They gather in Lodges, using this term to identify both the gathering place (aka Temple) and the group they belong to. Said Lodges, also known as 'Works' [I'm freely translating the italian "Officine"], gathering in a Great Lodge or Great Orient, work as the cells of the institution. Of said institution they are part and represent the promoting units, inside of it, of any initiatic activity. This structure, of federal type, has always characterized, ever since the beginning, each Masonic Obeisance."
The first Great Lodge was created in London in 1717 (June 24), with the Grand Master being an Anthony Sayer. In the following years Masonic Lodges were started in Canada and India (1721), Ireland (1725) and Scotland (1736). The first regulations were written in 1726, but these are said to go back to Adam himself through an unlikely line of characters, including King Athelstan of the Saxons.
The rituals of the various lodges were formalized and unified only in 1813. Today, different lodges claim to be the true followers of the original regulations.
The Freemasons were probably an active force during the Erench Revolution (the motto "Liberte' Egalite' Fraternite'" being part of the Freemason ritual), and also played an active part in the Italian Independence Wars. Maybe for this reason, maybe because "freedom of the individual" is one of the Holy-Grails of the organization, much more probably just because they are a secret society, the Freemasons were outlawed by both Communist and Fascist regimes.
Important Fact, please take note: while the masonic regulations clearly state that matters of faith and politics are not to be discussed in the lodge, freemasonry is essentially a political organization with a specific religious attitude.
This is only one of the many contradictions of the structure.
As for what kind of politics, well, here we are in contradiction-land once again. From my scant personal experiences, and the things I read tonight (I'm suffering from a bout of insomnia), I got the impression that Masonic political leanings are as confused (or opportunistic) as much of their overall structure.
In the UK, members of the Royal Family are said to be high-ranking elements of the Grand Lodge of London. The structure has a conservative characterization and claims to be the only true masonic Grand Lodge around.
In France three competing Grand Lodges are active, each claiming the primate.
- The French National Grand Lodge is for baptised members only (and therefore has a clear religios attitude) and marked Right Wing leanings.
- The Grand Loge de France his more possibilist on matters of faith and has a centrist political attitude
- The Grand Orient of France is openly left wing and has the largest number of members and influence.
In Italy (where my data are less punctual but somewhat more personal - an ex-girlfriend strived to enter a local Lodge), masonic lodges are generally perceived as sort of an exclusive club for the well to do; the right place to make influential friends and gain string-pullin abilities. Political leanings are not an issue, but are generally very right wing.
In this sense, the P2 Lodge was a clear example of the Italian brand of Masonic structure: a not-so-small secretive group including many politicians (independently of their politics), Bankers (Bank of Italy, Vatican Banks and Banco Ambrosiano) and financiers (IOR), industrialists and high-ranking clergymen, big underworld figures and secret service big-brass, using their preferential relationship to seal alliances and promote activities.
The more paranoid guys around could well tell you that P2 was effectively a Shadow Government de-facto running Italy from something like 30 years, from the "Economical Boom" (early '60s), through the "Leaden Years" (the terrorist ridden late '70s) on to the 1980s, when the structure tried finally to swallow too big a bite and strangled itself.
I already posted something about the Italian Masonic side-lines on 16/10/98, and I might try and expand it a bit if someone out there is interested.
Also, the more gaming oriented of you might be interested in a detailed description of a tipical Masonic Temple, with the symbolism explained.
It's longish but I can translate and post it to the list (I usually use it as a theoretic template to create cult temples - everything must have a cult meaning).
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 08:42:13 -0800
From: Josh Shaw
Freemasonry as we know it today (by some called Speculative Freemasonry) is essentially the evolution of the old masons guilds of medieval times
And that's your story and I commend you for sticking to it.
So what, exactly, caused a large group of London's brightest intellectuals, including most of the founders of the Royal Society to suddenly take up the rituals of a group of stone cutters? A group, come to think of it, that when we first encounter it has no stone cutters in it? On an island that apparently never had a guild for that particular craft?
(what is called Operative Freemasonry), said evolution consisting in the attachment of mystical or "mythological" meanings to what were essentially trade initiation rituals and procedures.
Yep, a good group of craftsmen, mostly working on churches in the middle ages would of course have initiation rituals involving dying and being reborn all with no mention of Jesus.
The transition occurred in the early 18th century, as the need for guilds was disappearing and these organizations had to find another ecological niche to occupy.
There were a large number of other guilds in England which became the "Worshipful Companies" of the City of London. Their histories are easily traceable to working members of those crafts and none of them became anything like the Masons. I don't know the details of their initiation procedures, but I've never even heard speculation of anything resembling the mystic whoha of the Brotherhood.
The first Great Lodge was created in London in 1717 (June 24), with the Grand Master being an Anthony Sayer.
Yes, from a meeting of three previously existing lodges, none of them "operative". The current Great Lodge of England officially dates all Masonic history from that gathering and refuses to speculate on what preceded it.
In the following years Masonic Lodges were started in Canada and India (1721), Ireland (1725) and Scotland (1736).
Scottish lodges already existed, going back to….Now there's a good question. Most Masonic historians believe that Masonry actually started in Scotland and moved south. Various Masonic myths give weight to this theory. And of course the Scottish Rite Masons swear to it.
The first regulations were written in 1726,
Based on various "olde charters" which the Grand Lodge collected from around the country. Rumors of charters and other literature that was hidden by the lodges the felt London was usurping the previous independence of the local lodge (Who died and made you king?) abound, but of course their hidden, see. That there was dissension in the ranks about London claiming supremacy is OTOH, documented.
but these are said to go back to Adam himself through an unlikely line of characters, including King Athelstan of the Saxons.
Adam? Gezz, you Grand Orient guys are weird. Most York and Scottish Rites only trace the lineage back to H.A.B. and the building of the Temple of Solomon Though only God knows what some of the side degrees teach.
The rituals of the various lodges were formalized and unified only in 1813.
The rituals of the various lodges are unified? By Rite and Jurisdiction maybe, certainly not world wide. And Albert Pike was still writing stuff in 1871, though I don't know how canonical he's considered today.
Today, different lodges claim to be the true followers of the original regulations.
Oh yeah!
Maybe for this reason, maybe because "freedom of the individual" is one of the Holy-Grails of the organization, much more probably just because they are a secret society, the Freemasons were outlawed by both Communist and Fascist regimes.
And you still get excommunicated from the RCC if you join
Important Fact, please take note: while the masonic regulations clearly state that matters of faith and politics are not to be discussed in the lodge, freemasonry is essentially a political organization with a specific religious attitude.
Could you expand on this please?
In the UK, members of the Royal Family are said to be high-ranking elements of the Grand Lodge of London.
In fact, these days, the Grand Master of England has to be a member of the Royal Family.
In Italy (where my data are less punctual but somewhat more personal - an ex-girlfriend strived to enter a local Lodge),
They let girls join in Italy??????????
Not one of the wives and daughters organizations but actually join the lodge?????
masonic lodges are generally perceived as sort of an exclusive club for the well to do; the right place to make influential friends and gain string-pullin abilities.
Here too, but in the states at least, more the upper middle class than the real rich. It's a good thing to join if you plan to run for local office or sell insurance. The politics tend towards the conservative, but not extreme. The Golden Circle of the ante-bellum South may have spun off from Masonry and probably was the parent of the Ku Klux Klan (from the Greek: "Cuclos" [Can't spell in Greek] meaning circle), but the very fact that they spun off indicates that they were seen as extremists even in their day. Though it might be interesting to find out how much Masonic imagery the Klan preserves in its rituals and weather its an authentic legacy or a reintroduction from Thule via the Nazis.
Please post a bunch more on P-2, and Grand Orient stuff generally, as it's hard to find much on either subject available in English.
I already posted something about the Italian Masonic side-lines on 16/10/98, and I might try and expand it a bit if someone out there is interested.
Very.
Oh, and by the way, I'm not a Mason (Flunked one of the key criteria to join) but Masonic "Secrets" are remarkably easy to penetrate in this day and age for anyone with a library card and a little spare cash to drop in used bookstores.
The Masons………This can go for weeks!
And then there are the links from the Masons to the Golden Dawn…..
"Will no one help the son of the widow?"
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 21:41:04
From: Davide Mana
I'll start by coming up with my hands raised and making clear that I am not a Mason (urgh… my grandfather would come back from the dead to scold me!), nor I have any direct contact with the guys - too working-class for that kind of gang, I guess.
And that girl was well over 18, anyway, officer…
Now, about Josh's comments…
So what, exactly, caused a large group of London's brightest intellectuals, including most of the founders of the Royal Society to suddenly take up the rituals of a group of stone cutters? A group, come to think of it, that when we first encounter it has no stone cutters in it? On an island that apparently never had a guild for that particular craft?
This comes to me as a surprise, as from the text I refer to it seems that there were some true-life masons in the very first structure, and that it later attracted said intellectuals and so on. But as I said, I look at it from a skeptic's point of view.
Yep, a good group of craftsmen, mostly working on churches in the middle ages would of course have initiation rituals involving dying and being reborn all with no mention of Jesus.
Sure it's strange, and we can debate this at length. The original rule against religious discussion within the lodge might explain the lack of names being named, but I'm improvising here. Also note that many religious concepts are simply expressed through metaphor. But I think I second your comment - I evidently oversimplified.
There were a large number of other guilds in England which became the "Worshipful Companies" of the City of London. Their histories are easily traceable to working members of those crafts and none of them became anything like the Masons. I don't know the details of their initiation procedures, but I've never even heard speculation of anything resembling the mystic who-ha of the Brotherhood.
Right.
And yet other cases are documented, notably the Coal-porters guild in Italy becoming a Mason-like structure much more interested in politics than mysticism - to wit, the Carbonari that helped (and hindered) the Italian unification process in the mid-19th century. And yet the Carbonari had a mystical side too, including some sort of documented obsession with reincarnation.
_And_ the newly formed Italian government saw fit to purge the whole lot of them, thanks kids, that's the door. But I'm wandering off-topic.
Yes, from a meeting of three previously existing lodges, none of them "operative". The current Great Lodge of England officially dates all Masonic history from that gathering and refuses to speculate on what preceded it.
And evidently my sources follow the same rule. We are clearly on to something here.
Adam? Gezz, you Grand Orient guys are weird.
I'm not a Grand Orient guy, if you exclude a few Jacky Chan and Chow Yun Fat movies, and playing Feng Shui, but you got the references right; much of my data come from a history of the main Turin lodge, a Grand Orient entity called "La Mysterieuse".
Most York and Scottish Rites only trace the lineage back to H.A.B. and the building of the Temple of Solomon Though only God knows what some of the side degrees teach.
Don't know about H.A.B. but I know about Hiram. Now, from my readings, the masonic ritual gestures, words and touches are supposed to be the same that Hiram (an architect that Solomon imported from Tyre to build the Temple) devised to distinguish between the hundreds of workers under him (or so the story goes - he was evidently bad at faces and names).
So yes, Hiram is usually seen as the originator of the practices, but [browsing frenetically through unspeakable tomes] Anderson (got it!) in his Constitutions, (1723) claims lineage up to Adam himself, though this is taken by some to be a figure of speech meaning "the dim and distant past".
The rituals of the various lodges are unified? By Rite and Jurisdiction maybe, certainly not world wide. And Albert Pike was still writing stuff in 1871, though I don't know how canonical he's considered today.
Once again, I'm referring to a text.
I translate…
"The ceremony of the reunions, as the tool symbolism were partly derived from old manuscripts of the London Guild. A real uniformity of official rituals was established only in XIX century, and in 1813to be precise, Up to that moment, the Lodges worked to 'educate and instruct Man in the Art of life', giving ample freedom to Masters in adapting their work to circumstances, times and cultural situation of time and country."
And you still get excommunicated from the RCC if you join
Which is really curious, as P2 (among other Lodges) included, among others, some Catholic Church Bigshots (TM). Even if they were not exactly good Christians, I guess.
Important Fact, please take note: while the masonic regulations clearly state that matters of faith and politics are not to be discussed in the lodge, freemasonry is essentially a political organization with a specific religious attitude.
Could you expand on this please?
As I pointed out later in the same message about the French Lodges, these have a clear attitude towards faith and a known political leaning. So they can't talk about it, but they can take sides. This I find contradictory at best.
Also, the Italian situation shows that Masonic Lodges have no problem at all gatecrashing into the political party life of a country and taking the controls of the stereo and of the refreshments. This is a political attitude, if deviant.
So, maybe not in intents but as a result of the members actions, the political nature of freemasonry is rather hard to deny. Also, consider that Masons were _right there_ in many political changes of the tide (French Revolution, Italian Unification etc).
In fact, these days, the Grand Master of England has to be a member of the Royal Family.
Right.
And in France, Napoleon III decreed that he only could appoint Grand Masters.
And the King of Savoy (later of Italy) endorsed the Freemasons in the 18th century.
Once again, politics is rearing its ugly head.
They let girls join in Italy?????????? Not one of the wives and daughters organizations but actually join the lodge?????
As I said, I fear some of the Lodges around here are far from orthodox. On the other hand, there _is_ a French Women's Grand Lodge. However, by the way the girl in question talked about it, the Lodge she had set her sights on was clearly an etherosexual kind of thing.
Can't say, really.
She talked about it at length but the relation was deteriorating fast so I did not exactly keep notes.
Here too, but in the states at least, more the upper middle class than the real rich. It's a good thing to join if you plan to run for local office or sell insurance. The politics tend towards the conservative, but not extreme.
Perfect!
Excluding convolved things like P2, smaller scale local lodges seem to be an upper middle/ "noveau riches" kind of thing, and clearly attract that kind of crowd.
And in Italy (allow me a brief aside) recently made fortunes normally go hand in hand with right wing politics:parties such as Alleanza Nazionale (that was originally Mussolini's Fascit Party), the separatist Lega Nord in its various avataras and the "petit burgeois"/moral majority/"the reds are coming, hide your women" party Forza Italia (yeah, I know all this is ridiculous) are normally supported by this kind of people. Incidentally, a good sprinkling of weirdness often seasons the stew: Forza Italia includes a few die-hard new-agers (if you can imagine new-agers wearing regimental ties), and the separatist movement has its own mystical thing including the worship of the Boar God and tons of pseudo-Celtic stuff that bear more relations to Asterix comix (which I love, incidentally) than to actual history.
And this is it for the time being.
I'll try to gather some more stuff about the whole P2 affair, but please remember that this is _big_ and so it might take a while.
Also remember that according to some sources, Mozart (a Mason) was killed by his friends after divulging some details about the structure through his Magic Flute opera.
I'm not a Mason and I'd like to reach a venerable old age and see the Halley comet once again.
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 17:35:23 -0800
From: Josh Shaw
This comes to me as a surprise, as from the text I refer to it seems that there were some true-life masons in the very first structure, and that it later attracted said intellectuals and so on.
And in this case, I think I may have oversimplified. As the Masons were then and are still a *secret* society, a comprehensive list of the early members may not be available. At any rate I've never seen one, so there may very well have been some operative masons who would've been on such a list had such a list existed. On the other hand, it is noticeable that despite much controversy over the origins of The Craft and while we do have some lists of early Masons, I've never heard of a stone cutter being mentioned among them. You'd think if the guys pushing the "we're descended from operative masons" story had one, they'd have drug him out by now.
But as I said, I look at it from a skeptic's point of view.
Oh god, skepticism is mandatory in the Masonic morass. The documents that weren't written by dupes were all written by liars. Nothing said about the history of Masonry, from the most innocuous and rational sounding theories to the wildest occult babbling (and there is some *wild* occult babbling —- royal Egyptian resurrection cults anybody?) should be taken at face value. I think the reason that the Grand Lodge discourages research on pre-1717 is that *they* have no idea where Masonry came from either and are scared to find out. But that's just *my* theory.
Yep, a good group of craftsmen, mostly working on churches in the middle ages would of course have initiation rituals involving dying and being reborn all with no mention of Jesus.
Sure it's strange, and we can debate this at length.
Oh, lets…
The original rule against religious discussion within the lodge might explain the lack of names being named, but I'm improvising here. Also note that many religious concepts are simply expressed through metaphor.
It strikes me that the other way around makes more sense. I can't imagine why a loyal group of church builders would need to ban religious discussion, I'd think that like most guilds they'd have a patron saint, religious feasts and a chaplain. I can see why a group whose practices are wildly variant from the Christian mainstream and which admit (unheard of at that time) both Catholics and Protestants would want to ban such discussions And absolutely Masonry contains religious concepts expressed through metaphor, but they aren't, by and large, explicitly Christian concepts. Indeed, while the current Masonic story is that the corpse of Hiram Abif is what is raised in the Master degree and he (and thus the initiate) is not returned to life, it's clear from the symbolism involved the the original rite involved the death and resurrection (in this world) of the initiate. A Christian gloss could be created for this, but it sounds, on the face of it, highly heretical to me. Though it does remind me of the ancient Greek mystery cults and the theory that what Jesus actually taught was a Jewish variation on them.
What the Historical Jesus (if any) actually taught …….. Now there's a can of worms lets not go into.
And yet other cases are documented, notably the Coal-porters guild in Italy becoming a Mason-like structure much more interested in politics than mysticism - to wit, the Carbonari that helped (and hindered) the Italian unification process in the mid-19th century. And yet the Carbonari had a mystical side too, including some sort of documented obsession with reincarnation.
The Carbonari, as you mention, are much later. I had always assumed that they were a Masonic offshoot or imitation that took up the symbology of charcoal burners as an alternative (perhaps because Masonry was outlawed) instead of stone cutting. If my memory serves, there was at least some mythic cross pollination. Didn't their mythos also claim decent from a king of Scotland? Sometime soon in here I'm going to have to dig out my Masonic/Templar books. Am I the only one on this list suffering from terminal "To much print/ Not enough apartment" syndrome.
But you (Davide) are the guy on the ground in Italy. There doesn't seem to be much available on the Carbonari in English, so if you come back a tell me that they really grew out of a legitimate labor organization, I'll have no choice but to believe you. I can always use some more stuff on them anyway, this is exactly the kind of bad ju-ju I like to drop on my players.
Adam? Gezz, you Grand Orient guys are weird. I'm not a Grand Orient guy, if you exclude a few Jacky Chan and Chow Yun Fat movies,
CHAN RULEZ!!!
and playing Feng Shui, but you got the references right; much of my data come from a history of the main turin lodge, a Grand Orient entity called "La Mysterieuse".
OK, but as you know (but we might as well explain for the masses) there is a distinct split both historically and ideologically between the lodges descended from the French Grand Orient tradition, which included all the French and Italian lodges, and the York and Scottish Rite tradition which covers the US, Britain and the Commonwealth. I'm interested in anything you can tell my about the Grand Orient tradition, as most of the easily available information on Masonry in this country focuses on the English tradition.
Most York and Scottish Rites only trace the lineage back to H.A.B. and the building of the Temple of Solomon Though only God knows what some of the side degrees teach.
Don't know about H.A.B. but I know about Hiram.
Same guy. For some reason in English Masonry Hiram Abif is abbreviated as H.A.B. Why? Robinson (a writer on Masonry) thinks that Hiram might be an interpolation for another figure and the monogram precedes the name, but if so, the original figure is either lost or one of the truly well kept secrets of Masonry.
Once again, I'm referring to a text.
I translate…
There is still a fair amount of freedom in how things are worked from lodge to lodge and from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. Some lodges in America now practice sort of a "mega-initiation" where the newby gets passed through the three basic grades (Entered Apprentice, Fellow Craft and Master) all in one night. Other, more traditional lodges disapprove strongly of this practice. Uniformity of Masonic ritual and practice may be one of those things that exist more in theory and pious wish than in practice. On the other hand, the point your guy may have been making is that things were even more scattered back in the old days, which is unquestionably true.
As I said, I fear some of the Lodges around here are far from orthodox. On the other hand, there _is_ a French Women's Grand Lodge. However, by the way the girl in question talked about it, the Lodge she had set her sights on was clearly an etherosexual kind of thing.
Actually, now that you mention it, I recall reading a while back the the French lodges, or perhaps some of the French lodges, were starting to admit women. One of these modern liberating the chicks kind of things ((((ducking for cover)))). I had forgotten about it. It'll be quite a while before that happens over here. Some lodges I understand are still arguing over weather or not to admit Black people (It's that Freeborn son of a Free mother thing you understand. No really, it is. Really……….)
Though on the other hand, the African American Prince Hall lodges show no signs of wanting to dissolve themselves back into the Masonic "mainstream" either.
Incidentally, a good sprinkling of weirdness often seasons the stew: Forza Italia includes a few die-hard new-agers (if you can imagine new-agers wearing regimental ties), and the separatist movement has its own mystical thing including the worship of the Boar God and tons of pseudo-celtic stuff that bear more relations to Asterix comix (which I love, incidentally) than to actual history.
Not new. Nazism in Germany grew out of a welter of Naturist, Occultist and such like cults. Ecology, simple living, respecting the (Aryan) earth, psychic energy, moving beyond western "rationality", respect for the intuitive were all part of the nazi program and milieu. *I* might say things like "retreat from rationalism", but an argument that NDSAP was the first "Green" movement could clearly be made.
NOW, I'd better duck for cover!!!
I'd like to reach a venerable old age and see the Halley comet once again.
Well, at my age that seems a bit unlikely for me, but say hi to it for me when it whizzes by again.
And see if we can get a landing this time. It's too pretty to let the amigos have it.
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 12:59:16
From: Davide Mana
As anticipated, the Masonic Discussion is growing fast. maybe a short recap is in order, just to establish a few starting points so that everybody will be able to follow.
Freemasonry is a secret initiatic organization.
Members unite in lodges (extended cells) under a Grand Master.
The rules of the game were laid down in the early 18th century, supposedly from previous, incredibly ancient sources.
Where this setting down of the rules happened is object of debate, as different traditions are present, each claiming to be the true holder of the ancient principles.
All the elements of the masonic tradition (rituals, terms etc), can be either taken at face value, or seen as metaphoric representations of something else.
Or maybe both.
Independently of the tradition's origins, Freemasonry often attracted influential people, thus becoming de facto a strong string-pulling entity.
Political involvement of the Masons through European history is well documented.
Basic tenements of the organization: within each man lies the key to truth and freedom - you only have to find it.
Which sounds pretty harmless but with a slightly different phrasing can kick-up a whole mess of theological discussion.
Now, on to what Josh wrote yesterday.
And in this case, I think I may have oversimplified. As the Masons were then and are still a *secret* society, a comprehensive list of the early members may not be available. At any rate I've never seen one
List members for the Turin based "Mysterieuse" in the 18th century are available: lots of noblemen, high-class regiment officers, physicians. And a complete (?) listing for the P2 lodge membership is available on-line at
http://194.20.201.132/memoria/index.shtml
The same site also has the complete transcript (in Italian, pity!) of the "Democratical Rebirth Project" that P2 intended to enable in Italy in the late '80s, and that really gave me the creeps.
The documents that weren't written by dupes were all written by liars. Nothing said about the history of Masonry, from the most innocuous and rational sounding theories to the wildest occult babbling (and there is some *wild* occult babbling —- royal Egyptian resurrection cults anybody?) should be taken at face value. I think the reason that the Grand Lodge discourages research on pre-1717 is that *they* have no idea where Masonry came from either and are scared to find out. But that's just *my* theory.
To which I fully subscribe.
As for the origins of the tradition, we can postulate two alternatives: - either Freemasonry originated from a single area (London? Scotland? Somewhere else altogether?) and then spread geographically, differentiating with the passing time into various threads - or we have sort of quasi-contemporary, parallel growth of roughly similar interpretations of the same original sources, that subsequently merge, cross pollinate and later separate again (as it happened with the Carbonari, see below).
Not that this changes the end results for the purposes of this discussion, of course.
The Carbonari, as you mention, are much later. I had always assumed that they were a Masonic offshoot or imitation that took up the symbolism of charcoal burners as an alternative (perhaps because Masonry was outlawed) instead of stone cutting. If my memory serves, there was at least some mythic cross pollination. Didn't their mythos also claim decent from a king of Scotland?
Now, for the Carbonari ("The Good Cousins" they called themselves), here's the short form.
Another trade-guild turned mystical club, they probably started in Italy in the early 18th century (had people nothing better to do back then?), moved to (or rather expanded in) France, were somewhat incorporated into the French Masonic tradition over there.
The French line subsequently created a whole tradition to claim paternity to the whole biz.
The original tradition, that sort of runs parallel to the Freemasons', survived unaltered (yeah, right - so they claimed) in Italy, where it took a strong nationalistic bend, so that the Carbonari cell-structure was later adopted by the Italian freedom-fighters against the Austrian forces in North-eastern Italy in the first half of the 19th century. The mystical side of the structure still ran deep, however, so that the Carbonari were all in all unreliable from a political point of view; the Savoy Kings were more than happy to wave them goodbye as soon as the unification process ended. "La Carboneria" is dead in Italy today as far as we know, but the Italian tradition was exported once again in France, where a branch separated from the Masons and tried to go back to the roots of the organization. I have no idea about how they fare.
Am I the only one on this list suffering from terminal "To much print/ Not enough apartment" syndrome.
No, you are not.
I can always use some more stuff on them anyway, this is exactly the kind of bad ju-ju I like to drop on my players.
Hope the above helps.
I'm interested in anything you can tell my about the Grand Orient tradition, as most of the easily available information on Masonry in this country focuses on the English tradition.
I'll try and find something substantial.
At the moment, the hottest item I have at hand is a paper by a very popular Italian anthropologist postulating that Collodi's "Pinocchio" is really an initiative manuscript full of masonic teachings; Collodi's intent, apparently, was not to tell a good yarn, but to popularize the Masonic mind-set, so that future generations would look with more tolerance on the Masonic practices.
A bit like what Mordiggian is trying to do with us about cannibalism.
For some reason in English Masonry Hiram Abif is abbreviated as H.A.B. Why? Robinson (a writer on Masonry) thinks that Hiram might be an interpolation for another figure and the monogram precedes the name, but if so, the original figure is either lost or one of the truly well kept secrets of Masonry.
Some parallels have been drawn between the Hiram character in the Masonic tradition and the Jesus character in the Cathar tradition. Following the Cathar trail you end up with a Masons/Cathars/Templars connection that is really too much for my meager powers of analysis.
But we finally come to something that might actually be
_ObDG_: the function of the Hiram character in Masonic tradition (similar to the Cathar traditional role for Jesus) is that of "The Opener of the Way". Now, where did I hear this definition before, I wonder…
Ecology, simple living, respecting the (Aryan) earth, psychic energy, moving beyond western "rationality", respect for the intuitive were all part of the Nazi program and milieu. *I* might say things like "retreat from rationalism", but an argument that NDSAP was the first "Green" movement could clearly be made.
NOW, I'd better duck for cover!!!
I used the same argument to annoy sanctimonious "Earth-first" characters and defuse some of their more irritating sermons - working and studying in the environmental/geosciences field you meet a lot of them, and quite often the more vocal elements are the less informed (not to say downright ignorant).
And here I stop once again.
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 13:07:06
From: Davide Mana
Here's an annotated (by yours truly) translation from "Leggi generali della libera muratoria in Italia" [General laws of the Free Masonry in Italy, 1808]
Please notice that almost certainly
a - this are still the rules applied in Italian Lodges
b - this rules are generally disregarded by Lodge members.
Here we go….
Abstract from the works of the Gran Loggia Generale dell'Ordine Reale della Libera Muratoria Scozzese di Rito Antico e Accettato dal Grande Oriente in Italia.
[Great General Lodge of the Royal Order of the Scottish Free Masonry of Rite Ancient and Accepted by the Great Orient in Italy.
Which tells us quite a few things:
Royal Order - most probably the Savoy King was informed and approved; other sources confirm the above.
Scottish Free Masonry - the Italian lodges are using the Scottish variant of the ritual instead of the London one; this might mean that the Italian lodges were created by French agents, as Freemasonry entered France through Scotland.
Rite Ancient and Accepted - the Italian lodges claim orthodoxy against other traditions (London, Canada, possibly even France)]
The Freemasonry, in this great institution, is of all Countries and belongs to all the peoples inhabiting the surface of the globe, having as a fundamental basis the theory and practice of virtues of which the Supreme Being placed the germ into the human heart.
(Omissis)
[now now now…
of all the peoples inhabiting the surface of the globe - are they implicitly excluding the BOYS?
virtues of which the Supreme Being placed the germ into the human heart - there is much more than meets the eye to this; according to the Masonic doctrine, initiates are supposed to learn the "Royal Art" (incidentally, another name of Alchemy) that will let them know the Truth that the Supreme Being placed into each man in the beginning. The virtues are therefore learned by obtaining this sort of inner illumination.
(Omissis) - makes me wonder what they cut out of the document…]
Moral or Masonic Doctrines
Art 1 - The teaching and practice, sheer of obstentation, of the morals of the Lodges, without regard to the times, places, peoples, Religions, are the characters of the moral doctrine of the Free Masons
[note the recursive self-referentiality: the teaching of the teaching is the teaching]
Art 2 - They love, are devoted and faithful to the Home Country, the Government and the Laws
[just to be on the safe side. Also, probably the most dramatically ignored article by such cliques as the P2 Lodge]
Art 3 - They respect all the cults, tolerate all the political or religious opinions; they are brotherly in attitude with all men; help through all adversities; sacrifice themselves in any case, one for all
Art 4 - Their rule, in any moment is: think good, say good and do good
Art 5 - They pardon with nobility, as to say without cowardice, without baseness and without reserve, injury, offense and injustice suffered
Art 6 - They keep perfect coherence between their speeches and actions
Art 7 - To the great names of famous Captains, of powerful monarchs, of all the so called great men, they prefer the names of the humblest Sages and choose as their model, when feasible, Confucius, Socrates, Fenelon, Vincenzo da Paola. If far from them, however they strive to follow their example.
[quite a cocktail of philosophies, undoubtedly.
I guess you can place easily Confucius and Socrates. As for the other two chaps:
- Francois de Salignac de La Mothe-Fenelon (1651-1715) - started as director of an institution whose aim was to convert to Catholicism young girls raised as Protestant (I guess the MiB could make lots out of this one). Later he became Archbishop of Cambrai; during his stay in Cambray he derived some kind of heretical view - derived from "quietism", a line of thinking that denies the utility of human action in its relation with God (so, devotion is useless as God does as He pleases anyway). He was later exiled.
- Vincenzo da Paola - this is a problem, as I've been unable to trace the reference. Could be Saint Vincenzo De Paoli (Vincente de Paul), one of the founders of the missionary movement.
Other, later (and quite possibly biased) sources add a few other characters to the mix, notably Zarathustra, Buddha, Ermes Trismegistus and many others]
Art 8 - The also say: DO WHAT YOU MUST, LET HAPPEN WHAT CAN.
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 19:56:05 -0000
From: "Mark Simmons"
Further on the topic of Freemasons and symbolism, it was quite common in the 19th century for major public buildings in Britain to have a Freemason motif. A good example is The Sheffield City Museum and Mappin Art Gallery (built 1875, modified in the 1920's and 1940's) in Sheffield, South Yorkshire, which has a classical Greek facade and frieze. The figures in the frieze look normal at a distance, but when you look closely there are hammers,compasses, unusual altars and anachronisms - some figures have miners lamps, knives etc (reflective of the city's industrial heritage), and loads of animals including frogs and, DG take note, insects, repeated in weird poses. I worked there for 7 years in the education department, and walked under this every day, but could only find out rudimentary meanings for some of the stuff above my head. Needless to say, the building was commissioned by the city aldermen, most of whom were leading Freemasons, and it was an open secret that they "immortalized" themselves in the frieze (some of the faces on the figures are supposed to be these men themselves).
Ps. I might interest you to know that the real Dr John Dee was chancellor (?) of Manchester University and is (was..) buried in one of the city cemeteries (I think it is the one in the old Smiths song, but I'm not sure).
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 22:51:45
From: Davide Mana
I've been browsing around to find further data and found two interesting urls.
http://www.crocker.com/~acacia/jfklinks.html
A huge collection of data about Freemasons, most probably biased to say the least.
http://www.indigo-net.com/dossiers/369.htm
A series of articles about the Freemasons/UK Police connection that kick-started the whole discussion.
Another interesting document I found, incredibly in English, is available at
http://csgdi.historie.ku.dk/publ/online/finmafiaen.htm
It's a complete panoramic on International Financial Mafia through history, by an Italian writer, and looks good at a first reading.
Appendix: Licio Gelli
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 14:02:29 -0500
From: Shane Ivey
Fugitive financier Gelli extradited to Italy from France
http://www.foxnews.com/news/wires2/1016/n_ap_1016_174.sml
Gelli, who has been mentioned before on this list, was an integral part of the right-wing P-2 secret society, and is considered by conspiracy theorists everywhere to have been the link between the Vatican, the Nazis, and the United States government from World War Two up into the Reagan and Bush years.
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 23:47:40
From: Davide Mana
Gelli, who has been mentioned before on this list, was an integral part of the right-wing P-2 secret society, and is considered by conspiracy theorists everywhere to have been the link between the Vatican, the Nazis, and the United States government from World War Two up into the Reagan and Bush years.
P2 (short for Propaganda 2) was a "particular" Masonic Lodge, particular in the sense that it effectively ran a big slice of Italy through the '60 and '70s.
Licio Gelli was the Venerable Master of the lodge.
Add to the count made by Shane also: at least one attempted military golpe (but at least three were set up through the years), the setup and managing of a private army that doubled as "Black" or "Red" terrorists as needed - equipment courtesy of "the Agency", personnel courtesy of the Italian Secret Services - political corruptions but like in cartloads, a few bankruptcies (including the IOR, the Vatican bank and Banco Ambrosiano), and a string of strange deaths - including a guy that poisoned himself in jail, another that shot himself twice in the head and than re-holstered the gun before dying, and one that "accidentally hanged himself" under Blackfriars Bridge in London.
And connections with the Mafia, of course; but not directly, no, he had contacts through the former Italian Prime Minister and politico superstar Giulio Andreotti.
He tried to maneuver so that he would be kept in France, as he fears that an "accident" might be in wait here in Italy to set on him as soon as he crosses the border.
Sounds incredibly likely.
I love this country.