Ghouls discussion (archive)
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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 12:02:03 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jose Burgos

I would like to know if there are any rules for how humans can degenerate into Ghouls. In DG:AI it appears that such degeneration's comes about through reading the "Ghoul Manuscripts" (the case of DG agent Jean Qualls); however, the basic rulebook (CoC5) mentions that humans can sometimes degenerate into Ghouls, yet no rules are given. Should this only be treated as a supernatural/magical process or can it be due to a biological process as well? Perhaps this process is detailed in an existing sourcebook. Could someone in A cell (or anyone with certain knowledge) comment?


Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 17:47:56 -0400
From: Graeme Price

Interesting. A "Ghoul Virus" perhaps? Some infectious agent or chemical altering the behaviour patterns of it's host towards cannibalism… wait a minute. This almost sounds like BSE (Bovine Spongiform encephalopathy -aka. Mad Cow Disease), although that was/is enforced cannibalism causing transmission of a degenerative neurological change. Kuru might be more appropriate (ritual cannibalism and burial practices causing transmission - again - of degenerative neurological disease and death in the Fore natives of Papua New Guinea). Notice that both BSE and Kuru (and the other transmissible spongiform encephalopathies) are also both fairly inexplicable by mainstream molecular biology (I'm not going to go into this here… trust me. I'm a doctor!).

I suppose that it is not beyond the bounds of possibility (for a CoC/DG setting) that someone/thing has manipulated an infectious agent (prion? maybe using the cookbook?) to trigger a latent degenerative mechanism which results in death unless the victim takes part in Ghoul-type practices (which could enhance the cycle further) or only triggers the transformation into Ghouls in a small proportion of those exposed. The question is who has done the manipulation (MJ-12?), and why (to increase the number of Ghouls as a slave race or as nuclear/biological/chemical resistant troops?)?. Incidentally, linking it into BSE is somewhat cute, as it gives a reason for all those cattle mutilation incidents in the midwest….

I shall have to work on this for a scenario, I think. Now, where did I leave my brain samples?


Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 15:27:59 -0700
From: "Aaron"

I think either the CoC volume "At Your Door" or "Secrets " contained a short adventure set in the '90's that contained a person transforming into a Ghoul. Was an interesting adventure. I do not remember the particulars off of the top of my head but it involved the devouring of bad meat and the descent into cannibalism I do believe. There though I do believe that the character was the child of a Ghoul worshipping cult and that one of his parents may have been a Ghoul. If you are interested I will follow up with a more detailed mail later when I can find my copy of the volume.


Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 15:56:33 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jose Burgos

Yes that would be a good help as I am trying to determine if this process is in any way biological (similar to the Deep One/Human crossbreeding results).

I would imagine that it should go beyond simply eating "bad" meat or otherwise anyone who likes to frequent MacDonalds would be Ghouls by now (Hmm, possibly story idea…)


Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 16:05:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jose Burgos

Incidentally, linking it into BSE is somewhat cute, as it gives a reason for all those cattle mutilation incidents in the midwest….

Hmm, smells like "el chupacabra" to me…

In the case of Jean Qualls, (human DG agent turned Ghoul) she attributes it (somewhat speculatively) to the possibility of DNA responses triggered by reading certain passages of the "Ghoul Manuscript". Still, I would think that such transformation should have a more scientific or biological basis (Oh no, I'm sounding like Scully here), otherwise this is one book *no one* wants to read!


Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 17:12:12 -0500
From: "Ricardo_J._Menndez"

A small question: is there any nutrient or substance that can be gained only through the ingestion of either human or long dead meat? That could justify the Ghoulish practices. Maybe the transformation could be triggered the first time the Subjects come into contact with that very substance, and as you pointed out, the substance just furthers the degeneration along. Kind of like a drug addiction.


Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 19:56:44 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael S Beck

The decision to eat human or rotting flesh may be a cultural choice rather than a biological necessity.


Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 21:22:31 -0500
From: "Ricardo_J._Menndez"

Indeed it could, but if someone turning to a Ghoul feels the inclination, no matter their background, it would be a physical need. Also, since we were looking into medical possibilities, it sounded like an interesting idea.


Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 12:59:42
From: Davide Mana

Sorry if I intrude, armed only with my palaeonthological background, into this learned medical dissertation, but there are a few options that, in my opinion, need to be covered.

Let's please consider a Ghoul's means of reproduction.

Apparently, the Ghoul as species can reproduce in three different ways, that I'll call (for want of better terms):

- - standard sexual reproduction - - crossbreeding - - contagion We might have overlooked the fact that the three processes do not produce the same kind of Ghoul, but I'll expand on this later.

So far, the discussion has covered chiefly reproduction-by-contagion, or "how to become a Ghoul". Interestingly enough, the main text giving us proof on the sexual reproduction of Ghouls, an account fictionally published under the title of "Pickman's Model" (I trust that you are all familiar with this item), might shed some light on the contagion angle, too.

The "Pickman" paper details the Ghoulish practice of planting "changelings" in human communities.

A child of the Ghoul is placed in the cradle of a new-born human child, and the child is taken to the Ghoul community. The stolen child is raised by the Ghouls to become a Ghoul himself.

The little Ghoul is raised by humans and passes for human without difficulty until something triggers the morphological change.

The reason for placing a Ghoul among humans might be traced to the documented possibility of human-Ghoul crossbreeding. Recent practices of "ethnic policy" in various regions of the world - probably one of the most sinister and hateful forms of human cultural degeneration - show us that systematically violating and impregnating the enemy's women is not such an unheard of practice. All of the above might also be taken to show that the Ghoul's attitude towards the Humans is not so neutral as some moderate members of our group seem to think.

Let's go back to the question of how the three Ghouls produced by the three breeding practices differ.

The Ghoul produced by sexual intercourse between two Ghouls is the less problematic; he shares his parent's gene-pool completely and is a Ghoul proper. The recently proposed taxonomical definition of "Greater Ghoul" might fit this sub-species, but further study is needed.

The human-Ghoul hybrid shares only part of the genetic set of his Ghoul parent, but this might turn out to be the dominant one in the long run. The taxonomic definition of "Hu-Ghouls" has been proposed and seems completely acceptable at least as a working terminological convention. The humans raised as Ghouls are problematic; they do not share any genetic material with their foster parents (or do they?), and while feeding on human meat seems to be a required practice. Leading to the perfectly justified postulation of a physical trigger for the change (cf. the earlier posts), a growing number of reliable data are also showing that simple exposure to the Ghoul cultural structure can activate the change (see the Jean Qualls instance).

It seems reasonable to postulate at this point that the change from human to Ghoul might be psychological in the first instance and only later assume a physical meaning, and so that humans turn into Ghouls by a psychosomatic process.

Incidentally, this perfectly fits the assessment made by the Providence Gentleman (an untrained but highly informed student of the Subject), when he emphasised moral corruption as a preferential means of physical degeneration.

The ingestion of human flesh is, from this point of view, much more a psychological/cultural "statement" than a real physical component of the change.

A psychological trigger seems to work also in the cases of Ghoul changelings reverting back to type (cf. the Pickman data).

Does this mean that a psychological/cultural component is _always_ needed to achieve the completion of the maturation process?

Or it simply means that little Hu-Ghoul hybrids are systematically used as changelings because of their higher mimetic capacity?

The process is not well understood at the moment.

Agent Qualls was both in the best position to observe the phenomenon and in the worst to clinically assess it, but her opinion about DNA triggering might not be so far fetched.

Please consider: if the practice of planting Ghoul changelings in our communities has been going on for long enough, we do not know how much of our gene-pool is tainted by the Ghoul DNA.

In this sense, Humans turning into Ghouls as a result of contagion might be a relatively recent phenomenon, either purposefully engineered by the Ghouls or simply an accidental result of crossbreeding that the Ghouls are just too happy to exploit.

Is it possible for a "pure", untainted human to turn into a Ghoul as a consequence of psychological degeneration or cultural pressure?

The Providence Gentleman seemed to think so.

This might force us to distinguish two forms of Ghoul reproduction by contagion:

- primary; the moral corruption and degeneration of otherwise normal humans
- secondary; the reversion to type of already tainted individuals

In the end, primary contagion might be just a thing of the past, or a purely theoretical possibility.

The next question, in fact, is: are there any untainted humans?

This probably depends on how long the "changeling planting practice" has been going on, and how pervasive it has been. At this point, keeping an eye on the results of the Human Genome Mapping Program might be a good policy for DG operatives.

Even if we might not like said results at all.

Here I close my preliminary treatment of the Ghoul/Human Reversion Mechanics.

Thanks for your attention.


Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 09:36:42 -0500 (CDT)
From: "G. Wyckoff"

Well, isn't the "Ghoul Manuscript" supposed to be bound in human flesh?

If that was the case, than perhaps the infectious element (I would also think it to be a prion) is able to survive in the cover of the manuscript.

As you read more and more and have greater exposure to the protein, you speed your transformation.

Incidentally, "prions" are supposedly infectious _protein_ agents. Most viruses are either DNA or RNA based; RNA and DNA are the "traditional" genetic material. Prions, on the other hand, are supposedly proteins capable of creating a heritable difference in your genetic material. As (I think it was Graeme?) said, the functioning of prions are somewhat of a mystery still. Several rather uncommon human diseases are believed to be spread through a prion mechanism. The only problem with this hypothesis is that the prion-based diseases seem to have a long latency period, whereas the "Ghoul transformation" is rather rapid.

What's all of this mean? Well, maybe you don't have to actually _read_ the book to become a Ghoul. Maybe lots of contact with it would do the trick. Maybe it is an especially pernicious disease, this "Ghoul transformation" agent. That seems just a little more than cruel to most investigators, however.

One interesting site on Prions, and specifically Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease (a human spongiform encephalopathy), see:

http://members.aol.com/crjakob/brochure.html

Note that it is sometimes difficult to incorporate "science" into mythos campaigns, because the Mythos behaves so differently from the way we would _expect_ things to behave given or limited understanding of nature. The fact that prions are still so poorly understood reflects that there is still a lot we don't know about nature. (Though, if anyone is interested, I could give a bunch of references on this line of research)


Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 16:39:13 +0100
From: NICK

I think the interesting thing about the mythos is (well, one interesting thing anyway) that 'magic' isn't what we normally think of as being magic - rather an incredibly advanced alien science. Elements of 'real' science can quite easily be blended into it. For instance; spoken spells could work in a similar fashion to 'the butterfly effect' of chaos theory - their intoning into the complex system that is the universe triggers certain natural processes that eventually results in a hunting horror showing up; or something. in this way 'magic' in the mythos universe is simply a science that truly understands the nature of reality.

So; ghouls - the transformation process is probably some kind of magical flip-side to the science of genetics. This should give keepers a fairly free-hand in tying together the scientific information they know (or have received from this list) with the more supernatural elements that appear in stories and sourcebooks.


Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 18:56:44 -0400
From: Graeme Price

Good point, and one which hasn't been satisfactorily answered even in the real world (viz. what do prions taste like?). It could be possible that the ingestion of human tissue could have a more subtle effect. If there was some form of neuro-degeneration in ghouls, this could affect memory (perhaps resulting in amnesia… damn, what was I going to say next?) Oh yes. Now if memories are essential for the efficient functioning of humans/ghouls, even on a subconscious level, there would be a biological imperative for retaining them. If this is blocked due to brain damage from the "ghoul-prion" accumulating in the brain, then new memories would be needed.

This may be provided by the ghoul ability/spell/whatever (my rulebook is 9 1/2 thousand miles away at the moment, so I can't look it up!) to consume memories via ingestion of human tissue. Theoretical, but hey! By the way, is this starting to sound like Bladerunner yet?


Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 18:56:43 -0400
From: Graeme Price

perhaps the infectious is able to survive in the cover of the manuscript.

A reasonable hypothesis: Prions are able to resist practically everything you can throw at them (you can hit them with huge amounts of alpha, beta or gamma radiation, and all they do is glow in the dark a bit. They are resistant to proteases and oxidising agents. And bleach. And UV-light. And heat [up to complete incineration]. You can bury them in the ground for a year and they are still infectious!) and they are present at up to 10^10 infectious units per gram of spinal cord (can't remember the reference, but this figure is perfectly kosher). One lab working on prions I know of routinely cleans it's benches in 6 molar NaOH, and they still don't know for sure that this neutralises the little buggers!

The only problem with this hypothesis is that the prion-based diseases seem to have a long latency period, whereas the "ghoul transformation" is rather rapid.

Not necessarily. It takes about a year for mice to go down with scrapie (albeit after intra-cerebral inoculation), and no one knows what the incubation period of "new variant" CJD is (for people living in the UK this is somewhat important - if the incubation period is very short [2-5 years] we are pretty much in the clear. If on the other hand it is 15-20 years then there could be tens to hundreds of thousands of cases over the next two decades - assuming that nvCJD is contracted by eating contaminated beef, that is). Genetic susceptibility could play a huge role here. Those who are going to become ghouls transform quickly; those who aren't susceptible either live completely normal lives, or drop dead from CJD 20 years later (or possibly the change just takes longer - remember this is degeneration into a ghoulish state, and so must take some time by the definition of degeneration… Almost instantaneous ghoulish transformation may occur in hyper-susceptible individuals though, but this could be by completely different means).

What's all of this mean? Well, maybe you don't have to actually _read_ the book to become a ghoul. Maybe lots of contact with it would do the trick. Maybe it is an especially pernicious disease, this "ghoul transformation" agent. That seems just a little more than cruel to most investigators, however.

On the contrary. There is a strong argument that it should teach them to be more careful. After all, they ought to be handling such dubious forensic evidence with rubber gloves to prevent them from cross-contaminating it! :)


Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 22:50:14 -0500 (CDT)
From: "G. Wyckoff"

Prions are able to resist practically everything you can throw at them Yep. Nasty business. is somewhat important - if the incubation period is very short [2-5 years] we are pretty much in the clear…. if on the other hand it is 15-20 years

I had heard there was still some debate about this.

beef, that is). Genetic susceptibility could play a huge role here

You bring up a good point: possible genetic susceptibility to the ghoul state. Interesting idea.

After all, they ought to be handling such dubious forensic evidence with rubber gloves to prevent them from cross-contaminating it! :)

One would hope that they would have picked this up already, but… maybe you start to forget the little things when you think aliens are at the door.


Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 17:27:20 -0700
From: Neil Laughlin

Here's a question I hope someone on the list can answer: what's the origin of the ghoul god Mordiggian? The last time I looked, he didn't appear in the Encyclopedia Cthulhiana [sp?] (which I might add is an incredible jewel of research, since I thought I saw the author around here). Is he a Pagan Pubs creation?


Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 22:00:19 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Andrew D. Gable"

Anybody else out there, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Mordiggian was originally created by our good ol' pal CAS, in one of his Zothique tales, I believe (BTW, looking at an old atlas th'other day I discovered a town in Quebec called St.-Zotique or something). I was surprised the Encyclopedia glossed over Mordiggian, myself. It does mention Thasaidon, another Zothique-god. As a side-note, I seem to recall reading that the lizard-monster Hagarg Ryonis, from the "Dreamlands" book, appeared in a story by CAS. True?


Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 00:51:34 EDT
From: TUO

Mordiggian does figure prominently in the story "The Charnel God" by Clark Ashton Smith. This story along with others by CAS can be found in the anthology Tales of Zothique put out by Necronomicon Press. Mordiggian dwells within a temple in the city of Zul-Bha-Sair, and is served by a cult of ghoul priests.

<Spoiler>

Informers at Pagan Publishing inform me that their campaign "The Realm of Shadows" deals heavily with this cult.


Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 11:04:16 -0400
From: Daniel Harms

Much as I would love to attribute Mordiggian to Pagan Publishing, they didn't make it up. Mordiggian turned up first in Clark Ashton Smith's short story "The Charnel God", which you can find in Necronomicon Press' _Zothique_ book.

(And in case you were wondering, I didn't include ol' M. in the first edition because he didn't seem to overlap at all with the Cthulhu Mythos. Now that he's gained in popularity, he's definitely in the second edition.)


Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 11:19:54 -0400
From: Daniel Harms

Mordiggian was originally created by our good ol' pal CAS, in one of his Zothique tales, I believe Yep. "The Charnel God". I was surprised the Encyclopedia glossed over Mordiggian, myself.

This was actually due to personal preference, something which often creeps into supposedly standard reference works. I think I took him out in the second edition.

As a side-note, I seem to recall reading that the lizard-monster Hagarg >Ryonis, from the "Dreamlands" book, appeared in a story by CAS. True?

As best I can tell, it's a 100% Chaosium creation.


Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 23:12:14 -0700
From: Collins James D./Sarah H. Wood

I have a theory about _ghoulish degeneration_ that I would like to share with everyone. A person's language (whether it is French, German, or whatever) shapes how they view the world. What if the ghoul's language (gibberings and meepings) shapes how the world views you? So the greater an individual's skill in the ghoul language, the higher the chance of that individual undergoing a _ghoulish degeneration_. What do you think?

In the same vein, maybe ghasts (coughing gutterals) are neanderthals that have learned this language (to their detriment).

Are languages viral or is the ghoul language a telepathic virus?

It's something to think about when you're picking _Other Languages_.


Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 11:57:53 +0100
From: NICK Yeah; I like this idea. I try to do this a lot in my scenarios - linking the haziest areas of science and liberal quantities of philosophy to explain mythos related magic.


Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 11:35:36 -0500
From: Ricardo J. Menndez

I believe that, even if a language partly shapes how you view the world since you have to have acquired a certain set of concepts and channels of thought to understand that language, it's also a matter of the environment where you grow and not only the language you're taught.

Then again, let's say that ghoulish language everything is pointed out in terms of rotten meat and grave digging (like the Inuit with their words for snow), it would certainly shape your mind that way after awhile. :) Even if I don't think that fully understanding the language is enough to transform a person into a ghoul, it would be interesting to see if it would be enough to *trigger* the degeneration if you're one of the changelings.


Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 20:06:42 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Andrew D. Gable"

I had long been toying with the idea that the Greek legend of Lycaon was based on a ghoul metamorphosis. For anyone who's not familiar with the legend, Lycaon was a Greek king supposedly turned into a wolf for becoming a cannibal and trying to feed human flesh to Zeus.

I liked the discussion of medical precedents for neurological degeneration associated with cannibalism. Kind of throws a whole new light on some of the werewolf trials of medieval Europe (particular Garnier & Peter Stubb), not to mention a possible tie-in with the wendigo psychosis. And Sergeant Bertrand, 'The Vampire of Montparnasse,' for that matter. Another thing I've considered as a scenario idea (in fact, one I'm working on now) takes the whole discussion about the Elephant Man and relates it to CoC. Briefly, for those who don't know, science right now is basically baffled as to what the Elephant Man had — money was on neurofibromatosis for a while, but that theory fell through. Money now is on something called Proteus Syndrome (I'm not really sure what this is). Interesting thing was, he displayed no deformities until about the age of two.

I'm not sure how this could fit into CoC/DG, but I'd suggest some connection with the lloigor or possibly the mi-go. It's just too good an anomaly to resist.


Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 12:18:20 -0500 (CDT)
From: "G. Wyckoff"

Are there any articles reasonably suited to a reasonably well-read generalist that would lay out the current state of the research? You might want to check out the following if you have access to a good library:

<snip>

Authors Prusiner SB. Scott MR.

Institution Department of Neurology, University of California, San Francisco 94143, USA.

Title Genetics of prions. [Review] [219 refs]

Source Annual Review of Genetics. 31:139-75, 1997.

Also, a web search on "Prion" might turn up some good, useful hits, particularly those dedicated to supporting people affected by some Prion diseases.


Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 17:18:12 -0400 (EDT)
From: The Man in Black

Things I would like to see discussed on this mailing list:

Artificial Intelligence - Threat or Menace?

Retconned Alien Technologies (MJ-12 & otherwise)

Aliens besides the Mi-Go, and how they interact with the Mi-Go

Possible future histories for DG (GURPS Cthulhupunk anyone?)

and for you WAG's who ask, why I don't post more about the above: I'm thinkin' about it still!


Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 16:55:21 EDT
From: SteveL1979

Here's a thought — what if the *real* Greys show up and are annoyed at the Mi-Go for using their likeness as a cover for nefarious deeds…?


Date: Sun, 19 Apr 98 23:20:24 UT
From: "John Gallant" <moc.nsm.cissalc|yrujr#moc.nsm.cissalc|yrujr>

what if the *real* Greys show up

This has some real potential. Toss this in after your players have seen the Mi-Go greys. Now they respond differently and they look somewhat different. What will it take to have the investigators catch on? "Ya know Bob, something's funny here. These ones went straight to the rectal probe rather than trying to saw open his skull…"

Lots of confusion and David Lynch-style weirdness is in order as the two groups scout each other out, probably using the DG agents as pawns.


Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 22:28:12 -0400
From: "Dan Chapman"

And, if such a situation escalated, what alliances might be made against whichever race is more powerful? Would the US/the PCs/the people of Earth ally with (or at least turn their attention from) the Mi-Go or the Greys? Both or neither?


Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 01:35:31 -0400
From: "Michael BEck"

What I can see is some kind of deal between Delta Green and the ghouls. The ghouls sould give DG their knowledge of the Mythos, and in return DG would cover up the ghouls' … indiscretions.


Date: Mon, 20 Apr 98 23:31:12 -0700
From: Joseph Camp

Something along these lines appears in a story in DELTA GREEN: ALIEN INTELLIGENCE. The boys at Pagan also plan to have substantial coverage of the ghouls of New York City in their DELTA GREEN: COUNTDOWN project, I believe.


Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 22:48:49 -0400 (EDT)
From: The Man in Black

As always, I must state my associates' objections to complicity with *any* supernatural force. It is dangerous to humanity to provide aid and comfort to the enemy.


Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 23:39:12 -0400
From: "Michael BEck"

I must object. In no known case have the creatures labelled "ghouls" harmed living humans unless directly threatened. If we can produce a quid pro quo that benefits both sides, I believe we should do so. However, we must also be careful not to fall into the same trap MJ-12 has.


Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 00:05:48 -0400 (EDT)
From: The Man in Black

I must object. In no known case have the creatures labelled "ghouls" harmed living humans unless directly threatened.

The case of Pickman, the sorry state of Agent Nancy, the disturbing trend of the neophyte ghoul faction, the ghouls' reckless behaviour during the French Revolution, the list goes on and on.

A temporary alliance with more traditional ghouls, perhaps, but remember, the ghouls serve Mordiggian, and what that entity wants is definitely not in the interests of humanity.


Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 16:46:57 +0100
From: NICK

Regarding the ongoing discussion about possible alliance between DG and the 'ghoul nation'.

Anyone whose had to blow the vile bastards away in any great quantity over the years will agree its a dubious proposition at best. They are of course, a useful font of information (preferably extracted through torture rather than barter), and it's worth bearing in mind that in the context of some kind of power struggle its definitely in our interests (short term at least) for the 'traditional' camp to win it, but ultimately I believe it's in our interests to eliminate the entire race rather than let them prosper. Long term plans to this effect will be quite welcome.


Date: Thu, 23 Apr 98 18:06:40 UT
From: "John Gallant"

Nick said:

…ultimately i believe it's in our interests to eliminate the entire race rather than let them prosper. Long term plans to this effect will be quite welcome.

Ya know, any plans for complete extermination eventually end up on 20/20. Then you've got Barbara interviewing ghouls claiming to be Russo/Mongol/American goat herds being singled out for an "ethnic cleansing." Since no one in the western world has any idea what a Russo/Mongol/American person is much less what he or she would look like, people would go along with it. The big N word gets bandied about along with the two 20th century H words that get dragged out by everyone trying to make an issue.

Then you get Ted Koppel asking someone claiming to be an insider. The guy whines about higher ups and Koppel asks why they're so darned evil. Ghouls become a cause celebre and one (more) gets elected to the senate. Then you get people screaming for equal rights for the Russo/Mongol/Americans in the way of a big cash settlement for past grievances. Then you have a fund-raiser where kids all get together and sing "We are the Russo/Mongol/Americans" and Willie Nelson founds what DG will label, "Ghoul-Aid," where stars will get together and make an album to benefit the poor R/M/As.

I think the best plan is just to label ghouls as Neo-Nazis for Gun Control/Minority Extermination. That way the Conservatives and Liberals have reason to work against them. They send in the ATF and FBI to botch the job and the ghouls get exterminated but other groups get shamed for it.


Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 18:56:25
From: Davide Mana

Anyone whose had to blow the vile bastards away in any great quantity over the years will agree its a dubious proposition at best.

Amen.

I'd like to remind to all field agents and case officers out there that the Mythos has many subtle ways to come and get you.

You can't do commerce with the devil and get out of it clean.


Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 16:08:33 -0400 (EDT)
From: The Man in Black

Perhaps you have noticed a split, a division in the ranks, a subtle disagreement. On one side we have a pack of bleeding heart liberals who want to make nice and "respect" the "alternative" culture of the Ghoul nation. On the other side, we have a mob of genocidal racists who would enjoy nothing more than to take the new explosive pellet flame-throwers to every cemetery in the nation, and burn 'em all.

My personal feelings in this matter support the position that will cause the most property damage and more importantly, the maximum possible body count. As always Karnage is King. This solidly rational viewpoint may not be shared by more squeamish agents who lack the appropriate firepower.

In any event we cannot have rogue "lone-wolf" agents violating agreements made by DG in good faith with those untrustworthy, no-good cannibal ghouls. It just wouldn't look good. It might also lead to a covert war that DG cannot win.

The point is, DG must come up with a coherent policy toward ghouls. Obviously overt hostile actions are unwarranted and counter-productive. The resources to pursue an active program of elimination are simply not available to DG.

I propose the following:

1) Ghouls are to be handled on an individual basis. Some may serve as friendlies, but never as agents (sorry Nancy, but you are *so* fired).

2) Ghouls that violate laws not related to their diet are to be handled in the most extreme manner possible, as an example to others. This policy is to be made known to ghouls in contact with DG.

3) All contact with ghouls is to be documented and authorised by A-cell.

4) DG Agents that violate this policy will be subjected to "administrative action."

This policy is essentially a "watch and wait" strategy that will maximise the effectiveness of our minimal resources. If good relations are maintained with the ghouls, we can stop renegade ghouls before they act by obtaining intelligence as to their actions.

Some will note that this policy resembles racial control actions taken in Nazi Germany in order to subjugate the Jews. This is deliberate. By implementing this policy DG will be engaging in a program of racial control. Hopefully the lessons of the Karotechia and the Third Reich will prevent any rash acts of genocide or blatant racist attitudes.


Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 21:08:56 -0400
From: Daniel Harms

Regarding the ongoing discussion about possible alliance between DG and the 'ghoul nation'.

Perhaps in the long term… say, planning for the next century when DG can get a huge chunk of federal funding… but this remains a difficult plan at best. This is what DG knows about ghouls so far (based on the sourcebook and _Alien Intelligence_):

- — They've probably been around for centuries;

- — They appear world-wide, and possibly live in another dimension entirely;

- — They're as intelligent as humans;

- — They've kept their existence from humanity for centuries;

- — They can take on the memories and/or appearance of those who they devour.

All in all, not a group of beings one decides to take on lightly. Even though we may object to them in principle, I would strongly advise against any sort of murder, torture, mutilation, or other interference in the affairs of these beings unless it proves to be necessary for the success of a mission. This may be against our mission in principle, but the fact remains that DG can't afford another enemy at this time.

Further, I would advise that anyone who encounters such a being undergo a medical examination as soon thereafter as possible, and that any offer of physical goods (but not information) be refused.


Date: Fri, 24 Apr 98 01:43:22 UT
From: "John Gallant"

You can't do commerce with the devil and get out of it clean.

This is where I disagree. As a certified representative of Big Man, or Old Nick as he's called around the office, I can safely say that right now you too can make the deal of a lifetime, regardless of past credit history. It's as clean a deal as you're gonna find. :-)


Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 02:58:15 -0600 (CST)
From: Chris or Maliki

just a few spot questions on ghouls.

how immune are ghouls to plagues of various sorts (bubonic/pneumonic, ebola, aids, etc…). given that they live off dead flesh, it is likely (i think) that the virus would also be dead before they consumed it. but what about in the environs of an active plague?

which leads to: why don't the ghouls (or the non-trad faction) release a plague into one of the major population centers? not only would there be incredible loss of life (and therefore a full dinner menu) due to the population desity of say, New York City, but the resultant breakdown of medical and police/firefighting services would mean that the bodies might be waiting for a while before they're buried or burnt….which means the ghouls wouldn't have to wait until they were buried to dine…i'm sure the cleanup crews won't notice some missing bodies among the scores of dead.

however, if they aren't immune, perhaps a large scale riot would be in order. there would be less loss of life, perhaps, but again, there would be tremendous disruption of police/med services, making for easy dinner pickup. given the wide array of tensions with in certain NYC communities, supplying weaponry and providing instigation shouldn't be entirely difficult.

of course, in either case, Azlis would prolly be rather pissed, loss of business and all that, but…


Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 22:05:34 -0500
From: "Ricardo J. Méndez"

Wow, nasty idea time, Chris.

how immune are ghouls to plagues of various sorts (bubonic/pneumonic, ebola, aids, etc…). given that they live off dead flesh, it is likely (i think) that the virus would also be dead before they consumed it.

Not quite. Dead flesh means only that your body is not working anymore, but a virus that can survive in, say, a glass flask, will also surely survive in a dead body environment.

Which does raise an interesting point. What diseases are they immune to? I'd think that anything related with the prolonged exposure of dead bodies wouldn't affect them, like the Black Plague or Cholera or who knows what else (maybe the microbiologists in the list can lend us a hand here?).

It would be an awesome to have the Ghouls somehow get a hold of a nastiest and quicker acting version of cholera and release it into a poor and overpopulated town, which most likely wouldn't receive attenttion until the epidemic is widespread, and then the chaos and madness would cover up for the ghouls while the FEMA team arrives.


Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 12:28:23
From: Davide Mana

why don't the ghouls (or the non-trad faction) release a plague into one of the major population centers?

I'll leave the immunity thing to the experts, and expand on the induced epidemic a bit.

Should such a thing happen, I'll pin it on the Young Turks, and not on the Ortodox Ghoulish Faction.

Keep in mind that eating the dead is a religious thing for Ghouls and Mordiggian is probably keeping close tabs on _how_ you get the dead you consume.
As far as i can remember from printed accounts, Ghouls usually attack humans to defend their territory (or to avert the risk of being discovered), but not as a direct means of finding food.
Even the peak in Ghoulish activity in time of war and plague seems to be a reaction to a sudden explosion in the nutrients (a reaction commonly observed in the natural world) more than the result of a planned strategy.

On the other hand, there's the bit about the underground train wreck as portraied by Pickman, that might be seen as a Ghoul stratagem to get a lot of fresh dead fast, but I'd have to check the story to be sure. All in all, Ghouls look a lot as an opportunistic kind of critter, not as an active predator.

Also, there's a few practical considerations:

Bodies waiting to be buried or burned attract a lot of mundane scavengers,such as crows, dogs etc. - competition, from a Ghoul's point of view.

There's also the fact that the evolution of a dead body after burial is decidedly different from the evolution of a dead body left in the open. I'm sure the medicine doctors on the list will be happy to supply lots of grisly details - I'm only a palaeontologist.

In short, we don't know if a dead body left waiting in the street for a week or so would be to the Ghoul's tastes (probably yes, but hey…)

And finally, maybe the body count resulting in an ebola (or what) break-out in NY would be too high for the Ghoul population to efficiently exploit it, and therefore be anti-economic.

Most probably, the Ghoul population in a given area is finely tuned to the supply of dead bodies the area they infest can provide. The usual nutrients/population feedback observed in natural systems, from plancton to elephants (and it applies, with a few tweakings, to humans to, and therefore to sentients in general).

Which leads to another consideration.

A small scale controlled epidemic - or any other way to produce a great number of dead in a short time - would be a likely signal that an increase in Ghoulish population is coming in a given area. Could well be the first step in a forced-breeding strategy as a prelude to an all out war - be it among Ghouls or waged upon humans. Once again the kind of doped-up plan the deviant elements might try to pull.

Veteran of the Ghoul War, anybody?


Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 10:34:27 -0400
From: Graeme Price

how immune are ghouls to plagues of various sorts (bubonic/pneumonic, ebola, aids, etc…). given that they live off dead flesh, it is likely (i think) that the virus would also be dead before they consumed it.

Not quite. Dead flesh means only that your body is not working anymore, but a virus that can survive in, say, a glass flask, will also surely survive in a dead body environment.

OK, there's been a lot of cobblers said in the past (particularly in various articles of fiction) about how stable viruses and bacteria are. First, viruses: it varies depending on the virus. Flu (and other enveloped viruses probably - this would include ebola etc.) is stable and infectious for weeks (own experience) but probably months or years at 4oC in the dark in a high protein solution. The presence of protein protects the virus from losing infectivity, dark stops inactivation by UV light and cold stops outgrowth of contaminating bacteria or fungi, and reduces the activity of enzymes which could damage the virus. Non-enveloped viruses (Adenovirus or poliovirus) are likely to be even more stable. Smallpox is odd, in that it is very stable at room temperature for years comfotring thought, isn't it?). This is the situation in controlled (laboratory) environments. Now in real life, there are several other factors which come to bear. Firstly, the biggest variable is how much virus is there in the first place: if you start with 1000 infectious doses and lose 99.9% of the infectivity, then you will still have 1 infectious dose left (conversely if you start with 100 infectious doses, chances are that you won't have any infectivity remaining… but it's all probabalistic in this case). In real life this is really tricky to try and sort out, so it's mostly been skirted around over the years. UV light (as a means of inactivating virus) has been proposed, but I think over rated. Certainly if exposure to the amount of UV in sunlight was going to inactivate a virus, then transmission of respiratory viruses would be much rarer. In this case it's academic, as if the virus is inside a corpse it won't get exposed to light. Lastly, there is temperature - the hotter it gets, the less stable the virus would be (various enzymes will become active during decomposition and destroy infected tissues and the viruses therein). Putrefaction will also reduce transmission to humans (though maybe not ghouls) as if you can _smell_ it then you're more likely to stay away from it!

The situation with bacteria is pretty much the same, but with a couple of caveats. Firstly, dead bodies make a good growth medium - so the bugs may well multiply a lot after death of the host (this is certainly the case with anthrax which actually depends on death and decomposition of the host to disperse spores onto the ground). But on the otherhand, bacteria will compete with each other in a way that viruses cannot (many of the nastier bacteria grow slowly when compared to relatively benign gut bacteria - which may be able to outgrow the pathogens… and use up all their nutrient supplies). Not sure about that though. Bacteri also need water, which may be a limiting factor in really dry environments. Lastly, oxygen is toxic to many bacteria, so as putrefaction increases and more of the body becomes exposed to the air, many bugs will either die, or produce spores.

Which does raise an interesting point. What diseases are they immune to? I'd think that anything related with the prolonged exposure of dead bodies wouldn't affect them, like the Black Plague or Cholera or who knows what else (maybe the microbiologists in the list can lend us a hand here?).

I'd guess they are probably immune to most things as ghouls. The problem would be what they got when still human. HIV and hepatitis C are highly possible, Hepatitis B is near certain. Various tapeworms, liver flukes and nasty intestinal parasites would be pretty common too. As for plague and cholera, I'd say that the ghould would have some resistance to these, if only due to the fact that if they were exposed to them they would:

A.) Die (and not be encountered) or

B.) Survive (and be immune).

Whether or not anything contracted as a human would still be circulating in fully developed ghouls is open to debate, but I'd see no reason why you couldn't have (for example) an HIV positive ghoul… this is of course why it is called a "bite and worry" attack!

It would be an awesome to have the Ghouls somehow get a hold of a nastiest and quicker acting version of cholera and release it into a poor and overpopulated town, which most likely wouldn't receive attenttion until the epidemic is widespread, and then the chaos and madness would cover up for the ghouls while the FEMA team arrives.

Actually, cholera would be spotted PDQ (it's damn obvious!) and _wouldn't_ be ignored by the local, state or federal health authorities. Cholera is actually one of the biggest worries if infrastructure (sewage treatment, clean water supply etc.) breaks down after disasters earthquake, hurricane etc.). You are right, though. Epidemics can act as great cover for other things: take the typhoid epidemic in "Herbert West: Reanimator" as a good example.


Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 14:19:14 -0400
From: Daniel Harms

why don't the ghouls (or the non-trad faction) release a plague into one of the major population centers?

[snip of some good arguments]

I'd add another: this would mean lots of attention and a prolonged investigation, which just might lead back to the ghouls. And if humans find out that a sub-species of corpse-eating monsters killed tens of thousands of people, ghouls would be in great trouble unless they wanted to carry out a full-scale jyhad against the whole world.

(BTW, I'm toying with the thought of a scenario or campaign in which everyone plays a ghoul - something like WoD, only with more cannibalism and less angst.)


Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 14:08:43 -0500
From: Shane Ivey

I have to say, I'd be much more entertained if all the Goth chicks tried to dress up like Pickman instead of Gaiman's Death.


Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 21:55:50
From: Davide Mana

(BTW, I'm toying with the thought of a scenario or campaign in which everyone plays a ghoul - something like WoD, only with more cannibalism and less angst.)

As long as it's angst-free I'll buy one…

Not that it would be difficult, to be less angst-ridden than WoD. A nice idea, all in all - my players would probably hate it <EG>

Thanks for solving my Halloween Night Game, pal!


Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 18:25:36 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Andrew D. Gable"

I really like the idea of a Traditionalist-New Wave ghoul conflict and the schism it causes within ghoul society, and also how it may effect Delta Green (would Delta Green ally themselves with Traditionalist ghouls in a battle against the New Wave ghouls?). COUNTDOWN, whenever it comes out, will expand upon this (I believe). I already developed the following idea somewhat. It's really annoying to me that I seem to develop a lot of the ideas they do in COUNTDOWN… so far I've written up an adventure involving PISCES (it'll have to be pre-Shaggai, I guess) and this thing as well.

In one of my adventures, KERBEROS (I vastly prefer the original Greek spelling to the more common Cerberus, dunno why), which, BTW, was a blatant rip-off of the sequel to RELIC, RELIQUARY (excellent, IMHO), I suggested that the New Wave ghouls, having discarded the worship of Mordiggian, recruited some of the greater ghouls to their side and developed their own priesthood. They now worship a god forgotten by the other ghouls, Gyr'tan-haa (who masqueraded as Zeus Lykaon and Cerberus), who represents the savage nature of the New Wave ghouls.

I've also come up with the idea that New Wave ghouls are biologically different from Traditionalists, being evolutionary throwbacks to an earlier day or in some instances living Primals (the ghoul equivalent of a Neanderthal). Needless to say, some of the New Wave ghouls are very ancient indeed. The Beast of Gevaudan (see 'French Churches' post) was either a very early representative of the New Wave or an ancient Primal.


Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 08:52:32 +0900
From: "David Farnell"

And finally, maybe the body count resulting in an ebola (or what) break-out in NY would be too high for the Ghoul population to efficiently exploit it, and therefore be anti-economic.

Also, keep in mind what ebola does to a body—major tissue breakdown. Quite possibly not to ghoulish tastes, although maybe some of them like the "slurpy" effect.

Ghouls may be immune to nearly all human diseases, but that doesn't mean they'll want to eat the remains of those humans who died of certain diseases. So, all ye pathologists, what in your fevered imaginations would be the culinary effects of some of the nastier diseases?


Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 20:02:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: The Man in Black

developed their own priesthood. They now worship a god forgotten by the other ghouls, Gyr'tan-haa (who masqueraded as Zeus Lykaon and Cerberus), who represents the savage nature of the New Wave ghouls.

I always thought that the Ghoul Civil-War was a matter of the Orthodox Mordiggian Preisthood against Ghouls who were recruited from, or follow the teachings of violent and aggressive human cults that worshipped Nyarlathotep and Hastur (like the Ghoulie Boyz, gangbangers from GURPS CthulhuPunk). Although you never know with Nyarlat the Gratified; maybe he's posing as Gyr'tan-haa?

I've also come up with the idea that New Wave ghouls are biologically different from Traditionalists, being evolutionary throwbacks to an earlier day or in some instances living Primals (the ghoul equivalent of a Neanderthal).

Hmmm… I like the idea of Neanderthal Ghouls, who may have seen Stygia, Hyberborea and Atlantis. These guys should worship Mordiggian tho', cause Moldy ol'Diggs was quite popular during the whole Conan/King Kull era.


Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 09:29:20 -0400
From: Graeme Price

Dave wrote:

Ghouls may be immune to nearly all human diseases, but that doesn't mean they'll want to eat the remains of those humans who died of certain diseases. So, all ye pathologists, what in your fevered imaginations would be the culinary effects of some of the nastier diseases?

Death, mostly. My own opinion is that ghouls would be immune only to those things they have previously encountered, although they may have a heightened resistance to (but not immunity from) all disease. They are unlikely to have previously encounted something like ebola (unless they are ghouls from deepest, darkest Africa) and so should be susceptible to it.

However, does this mean that it will kill them outright? Perhaps on earth, but in the fevered delirium of disease, there is a good chance that they could escape into the Dreamlands. Always nice to have a way out.


Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 16:20:58 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Andrew D. Gable"

I mentioned a while back how I thought that possibly some lycanthropic legends were based on outbreaks of the "ghoul prion." I had mentioned the Greek legend of Lykaon, the king turned into a wolf by Zeus as revenge for his cannibalism. Today, I was checking through a copy of Elliot O'Donnell's WERWOLVES and found that the werewolf-as-ghoul theory is supported.

Methods of becoming a werewolf range from drinking "enchanted" water, to covering oneself with a salve or ointment, to picking or ingesting a certain kind of whitish flower. All of these sound like acceptable methods for transmission of the ghoul prion. The most common, though, is through sorcery — invoking an evil spirit — and I think the results of this sorcery, according to the Norse and Swedes, are significant enough to mention — "a monstrous hooded figure with a death's head" (comp. CAS' description of the priests of Mordiggian) or "a sub-human, sub-animal type of Elemental" (comp. "traditional" ghouls) would appear and make the sorcerer into a werewolf. Alternately, he was sometimes given a magic skin which, when worn, would turn him into a werewolf.

Thought that these sounded like they could be useful ideas for DG players & keepers interested in the ghoul prion.


Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 17:15:40 -0400
From: Graeme Price

I mentioned a while back how I thought that possibly some lycanthropic legends were based on outbreaks of the "ghoul prion." I had mentioned the Greek legend of Lykaon, the king turned into a wolf by Zeus as revenge for his cannibalism.

In fact, a few years ago I had begun to wonder how the werewolf (and vampire) myths got started. Then (as is often the case) I got set an interesting undergrad essay on the pathogenesis of rabies. Synchronicity struck, wheels were set in motion, and I developed the following hypothesis based on what I had learned.

Lycanthropy: transmitted by the bite of a "werewolf" - a large slavering dog-like creature aggressive towards humans. Real world explanation: rabid dog/wolf bites man and spreads rabies virus: human victim becomes violent and starts biting people after an incubation period for the disease to manifest (anything from 2-10 weeks, most often 2-3 weeks in humans: easy to see how folklore would correlate this with the full moon). People bitten would catch lycanthropy from the bite of the man beast etc. etc.

Vampirism: much the same sort of effect (note the linkage of wolves in some legends, and/or bats in others: bats are a natural host of rabies virus… staring to see a correlation yet?). The hydrophobia (fear of water) caused by rabies virus may go some way towards explaining the myths (not universal in all cultures by the way) that vampires (werewolves also?) cannot cross running water. The epidemiology fits as well: rabies is worldwide, but is more incident in the Balkans and eastern europe and in the far east (don't know about historically, but that is the current situation): both seats of vampire legend.

Before someone (Jerry) points out that most scientific explanations of lycanthropy hinge on porphyria, I'm not disagreeing with this, just proposing another theory from an infectious disease viewpoint. Doubtless I have missed something important from a mythological or anthropological view, but I'm out of my depth in these subjects. I do think there is probably a book in the scientific explanation of folklore and I think I will have to try and write it when I have time (probably when I retire in 2030 or so… place your advance orders now! sigh!).

On rabies itself, it is a fascinating beast from a pathological viewpoint. It is the _only_ virus (possibly the only infectious agent at all) which is 100% fatal once the symptoms have developed, and rather more interestingly the only infectious agent (as far as I am aware: which is pretty bloody far!) that modulates the behaviour of the host to maximise transmission (all due to replication in the nervous system and certain areas of the brain: I can go into this in depth if anyones wants, but don't get me started!). Increased aggressiveness and biting are obvious, but rather more subtle (and underappreciated: even my tutors hadn't figured this out) is hydrophobia. To be transmitted, the virus replicates in the salivary gland, and is released in saliva which enters the wound following a bite. If you drink, then the virus is diluted in saliva (or washed out totally for a while) making saliva less infectious (difficult to prove, but theoretically correct). All this from about 10,000 nucleotides of RNA wrapped in protein and lipid. Almost appears sentiently designed doesn't it?


Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 17:41:39 -0500 (CDT)
From: "G. Wyckoff"

Doubtless I have missed something important from a mythological or anthropological view, but I'm out of my depth in these subjects. I do think there is probably a book in the scientific explanation of folklore and I think I will have to try and write it when I have time (probably when I retire in 2030 or so… place your advance orders now! sigh!).

Actually, there was a very recent (within the past two weeks) Science comment and a paper in another journal (I'll look it up and post it, I promise) in which Vampirism and rabies are linked historically.

Fascinating article and it made me wonder why the idea hadn't been proposed before. The most interesting part was that the author had dug up anthropological evidence that rabies victims "could not stand their own sight in a mirror", much like Vampires. I found the evidence pretty compelling. You might be able to find an abridged version of this at the journal "Sciences'" website.


Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 16:19:28 -0700
From: Christian Conkle

I've seen a lot of scientific retro-engineering of "Vampirism". One that suggests Rabies, one that suggests a rare blood disease that also caused the bones to luminesce(can't remember the name, it was suggested on the Today Show in the late 80's, well, that was the first I saw of it), one that suggests Smallpox victims being misdiagnosed as dead and then buried when they were actually just comatose (Discovery Channel), etc.

I have a feeling that just about all the theories of the scientific nature of "Vampirism" are ALL true. No one cause is exclusively the root of the legend. This would explain the many MANY and often conflicting folk-tales of what a Vampire is, what a Vampire can do, and how to dispose or ward off a Vampire. In a superstitious unscientific world, just about ANY behavior would be linked to supernatural phenomena. Any of the above conditions, indeed ANY condition from Muscular Dystrophy to Dementia to Parkinson's Disease could be ascribed to:

a. the work of demons or spirits, possession, etc.

b. witchcraft

c. vampirism, ESPECIALLY if the sufferer was misdiagnosed as being dead, prematurely buried, then exhibited signs of activity in the grave (groans, thumping, movement of bodies in the coffins if exhumed, etc.)

d. animism or lycanthropy, werewolves, werebears, etc.

If a colony of such people, living alone and isolated somewhere, were to be encountered by travellers unfamiliar with the colony, that traveller would return with accounts of a strange race of beings, wholly unlike themselves or anything resembling humans. The attributes of those in the colony would then be enhanced or altered through retellings or word of mouth to the point that the records of such beings would be completely unreconcilable with the actual people. Thus you get the stories of headless men living in Asia, and so forth.

On a side-track, I read a Discover Magazine article a few years ago about a Viking who was unstoppable in battle, he was also butt-ugly and could take an axe to the head and keep going. Recent archeaological and medical evidence suggests that the viking in question had a rare bone disease that caused unchecked growth of the bone in the skull, creating a really REALLY thick skull, like 2-3 inches thick! This person would suffer great headaches, not be too bright, and could, indeed, take an axe-blow to the head (in fact, you couldn't break the skull with a sledge hammer). And, of course, his face/head would be grotesquely malformed and ugly as all-get-out. But I wouldn't be the one to say so to his face :~)

My point being, any conditional behaviors could be ascribed to "Supernatural" beings.


Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 20:08:29 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Andrew D. Gable"

I've seen a lot of scientific retro-engineering of "Vampirism".

The theory about rabies-as-vampirism seems, at least to me, highly unlikely, as I believe the researcher stated he based it on similarities between victims of rabies and Dracula, and I don't think I need to say twice that the Dracula films are entertaining, but not a very good reflection (IMHO) of the original vampire myths.

I'm referring here to the author's mentioning hypersexuality or something: present in Dracula, sure, but not a real vampiric trait (watch Nosferatu, a good depiction IMHO of a "traditional" vampire: tell me who in their right mind would wanna have sex with that—no sick comments, MIB). Irresistable sexual attraction, indeed!

the viking in question had a rare bone disease that caused unchecked growth of the bone in the skull

Would this be the same disease that the kid in MASK had? Certainly sounds similar to me.


Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 20:25:29 -0400
From: Daniel Harms

Before someone (Jerry) points out that most scientific explanations of lycanthropy hinge on porphyria, I'm not disagreeing with this, just proposing another theory from an infectious disease viewpoint.

Actually, the porphyria theory is mostly dead, largely because its "vampiric" effects (such as sensitivity to sunlight) refer to the modern screen vampire rather than the actual mythological monster.


Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 16:57:20 -0800
From: "Jeffrey Moeller"
You are all referred to Pagan Publishing's "Coming Full Circle" for an excellent discussion of both legends in both historical and medical contexts. Apart from rabies, porphyria and the like, two things bear mentioning:

1) people occasionally got buried in medieval, rural Europe when they weren't, as Monty Python might put it, "quite dead yet." Sometimes these people would recover, escape and shamble back into town, scaring the bejeezus out of people and looking pretty gnarly to boot. They would head for home, of course, leading to the "vampires go after their relatives first" shtick.

2) More often, once a vampire rumor would get started, people would start digging up recent graves to "doublecheck." They would be surprised at how little decomposition had occurred, and how the person just looked very pale and thin.


Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 12:56:23 -0400
From: Graeme Price

Actually, there was a very recent (within the past two weeks) Science comment and a paper in another journal (I'll look it up and post it, I promise) in which Vampirism and rabies are linked historically.

Damn! For a minute I thought that someone had beaten me to a publication on an unprovable (and undisprovable) subject in a category A journal (every scientist's dream!). The Science article (Science 281(5285), p1951 25th Sept 1998) is just a quick 4 paragraph summary of an apparently more detailed paper in the September issue of Neurology (a trip to the Med School library is in order for me this afternoon, I think). Quotes from the Science article are:

"…symptoms of rabies - such as a tendency to bite and an aversion to mirrors - bear an uncanny resemblance to historical descriptions of vampires. Reports of the bloodthirsty undead terrorized areas of Eastern Europe in the early 1730's, a few years after a major rabies epidemic was recorded in Hungary among dogs and wild animals [doesn't mention bats, but I would guess these were also involved - GP]….. Juan Gomez-Alonso, a neurologist at the Hospital Xeral in Vigo, Spain [author of the Neurology paper]… lists plenty of reasons to diagnose vampires as rabid. Its victims suffer from insomnia and sometimes have increased sex drives, he syas, while vampires were said to wander in the night and stalk women. The animals associated with vampires - wolves and dogs - were common rabies carriers at the time. In addition, because rabies victims have touble swallowing, bloody saliva sometimes drips from their mouths. Some experts, however, aren't ready to drive a stake through this mystery. Human to human rabies transmission is rare even through bites, says Charles Rupprecht, cheif of the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's rabies section. The rabies explanation is intruiging, he concludes, but still "a bit of a stretch"."

OTOH, although human to human transmission is rare (but not unheard of) with current strains of rabies, we don't actually know about the transmissibility of ancient strains (especially in the pre-vaccine era). There's a scenario in there if anyone wants to put the effort in.

Fascinating article and it made me wonder why the idea hadn't been proposed before. The most interesting part was that the author had dug up

"Dug up". Very good. Pun intended?

anthropological evidence that rabies victims "could not stand their own sight in a mirror", much like Vampires.

Will most more once I have the original article (assuming that our library carries the journal that is!)

After a quick trip to the Med School library, I can now confirm…

Right, Neurology. Damn brain is turnign to spam.

The full reference is:

Gomez-Alonso, J. (1998). Rabies. A possible explanation for the vampire legend. Neurology 51(Sept. 1998), 856-859.

Well worth a read, as Jerry mentioned.

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