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Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 21:14:36 EDT
From: moc.loa|rJrekaorC#moc.loa|rJrekaorC
Okay, we all know that the prime element of Delta Green is role-playing and that paying too much attention to the game system will cause minor but possibly irreparable right-brain damage and may make one less prone to creative writing, painting, and sensing the dream-speech of Great Cthulhu.
But, what the hell, sometimes I kind of like tweaking the rules, and I've had just barely enough exposure to real-life tactical stuff that I like messing with the combat rules. So, here's some brief, possibly useable, and altogether meaningless (from a "What are we going to do tonight, Brain?" standpoint) notions…
1. ATTACKING THINGS
Earlier I was reading some online promotional materials from a company that teaches tactical training methodologies to military and law enforcement organisations, and they had some interesting articles on the distinctions between physical action in training and in actual combat; a lot of brief discussion on the effects of the sympathetic nervous system on perception and motor skills, particularly the fact that once the SNS kicks in ("fight or flight") fine motor skills (like shooting a gun or doing complicated manoeuvres) deteriorate badly while gross motor skills (like punching someone or swinging a stick) remain relatively unimpaired.
In game terms, the skills that are written on the character sheet are treated as the effectiveness of the character at performing the action in actual combat; a character with a 50% handgun skill can be assumed to hit the bullseye pretty consistently at a range, while only occasionally getting the bullet into the target when the target is shooting back or extending sloppy tentacles or whatever. As a rule of thumb, I would suggest doubling the attack skill in a situation where the attacker is not being attacked or shot at, and thus doesn't have to worry about instinctive flinching and all that business interfering with his or her aim.
This works just about right for guns, but not quite as well for hand-to-hand attacks, where according to the standard rules you have the uninspiring spectacle of normal human beings flailing about in thin air with something as simple as a club. I would solve this with a new melee attack option, by which a character can flail about and have a better chance to connect with the target, but would be less likely to connect with something vital; characters with high skills would be adept at hitting the good bits and doing real harm.
I'm calling the new option "Strike" (imaginative, huh?), and it just means that a character can opt to attack at double skill, but will inflict half weapon damage; as a corollary, impales would only be possible on a roll of 01-05, but would inflict their full damage (double the normal weapon damage). The damage bonus applies after halving the Strike damage or doubling the
impale damage.
So, your Arnold Swartzenegger clone with the +1d6 db but base club skill could swing a baseball bat at 25%, to inflict 1d8+1d6, or could Strike at 50%, to inflict 1d4+1d6. Using a switchblade, he could attack normally at 25%, inflicting 1d4+1d6 (2d4+1d6 on an impale), or he could Strike at 50%, for 1d2+1d6 (but still 2d4+1d6 on an impale).
It is noted that at base skill of 25%, the chance for impale is the same between a regular attack and a Strike, but altering that would mean making things more complicated than I'm willing to bother with at this point. ;-)
2. ATTACKING THINGS REALLY WELL
First off, special success attacks. You have impales for puncturing weapons, which is appropriate. According to "The Book of the Sword," a 19th century treatise on primitive weaponry, the puncture wounds of bayonets were more deadly than the cutting wounds of swords; this was due to infection as much as the immediate shock of having an organ pierced, but the Impale rule is a handy way to represent that extra deadliness.
But that leaves cutting and blunt attacks out in the cold. I would suggest adopting "Incapacitation" as the special-success result for non-impaling attacks: a special success cutting or blunt attack is treated exactly as a special Knock-out attack, but without the reduction of total damage: compare the rolled damage against the victim's current HP (after the new injury) on the Resistance Table to get the percent chance that the victim has been incapacitated by the blow, due to a cut muscle or tendon, a strike to the groin or head, or whatever your fiendish imagination (a property of every good Keeper) can come up with. If the attacker is using a weapon which can cut or stab, use the effect that makes the most sense: if the player said, "I'm going to slice him with my knife," then use incapacitate, not impale.
There are also specially-aimed shots, like when the expert pistoleer in your group wants to take out the cultist with one head shot to save the hostage. Easy enough: the attack is performed at half normal skill, but the result is automatically a special success (impale for double damage, or incapacitation). Extras like laser sights or aiming for a full round or two will increase the final attack chance normally. Fully automatic fire will not increase the chance to hit on such an aimed shot.
Editor's Note - the Martial Arts chapter has been used as the basis for the Delta Green - Martial Arts Manual; similarly, the Infection Rules chapter has been incorporated into the Medicine and First Aid Manual
GUNS! GUNS! GUNS!
(or, "Settle down, Beavis")
.357 damage: The official rules have .357 damage at 1d8+1d4 (avg. 7, max 12, with a 3% chance of maximum damage), and .45 damage at 1d10+2 (avg. 7.5, max 12, with a 10% chance of max damage). A .357 is less dangerous than a .45?
The bullet is smaller, but it moves at a terrifically greater velocity and thus has greater penetration and kinetic impact and accuracy. Move it back up to 1d8+1d6, not 1d8+1d4.
.45 ROF: I haven't fired either enough to make a reliable first-hand comparison, but a couple of studies I read indicated that the accurate rate of fire for the .45 semi-automatic was not much different from that of the 9mm; it sometimes came in slightly higher, in fact. For game balance and to give the venerable .45 semi-automatic some respect, move its ROF up to 2 per round.
10mm damage: Velocity and kinetic energy for the 10mm round are frighteningly high; it's not a step between the .45 and the 9mm, it is more powerful than either one. Damage should be 1d10+1d4, equivalent to the other Magnum rounds.
.50 AE damage: Scary as it sounds, the Desert Eagle pistol can be chambered for a .50 round (just in case that .44 magnum round didn't make quite a big enough hole in your enemies before). This will be bigger and badder than the .44 that is listed in the rules. When your players find out about this and want to carry one, put its damage at 3d6+1 (yep, that's a whole lot of dice on an impale—"Are you SURE this isn't a Dark Champion game??"), with base range of 30 yards, ROF 1 per round, Fumble/Jam rating of 97-00, and a clip of 7 (I think). Don't let them talk you into allowing a silencer on one or hiding it from prying eyes in a shoulder or ankle holster. "Is that a tank in your shirt, or are you just happy to see me?" ;-)
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 12:54:23 +0900
From: "David Farnell"
A .357 is less dangerous than a .45? The bullet is smaller, but it moves at a terrifically greater velocity and thus has greater penetration and kinetic impact and accuracy. Move it back up to 1d8+1d6, not 1d8+1d4.
Good show. I've been doing this for some time now.
For game balance and to give the venerable .45 semi-automatic some respect, move its ROF up to 2 per round.
I could empty a .45 in about 2 seconds (couldn't hit anything of course). Its kick is not all that bad—I've got skinny little wrists, too.
10mm damage: Velocity and kinetic energy for the 10mm round are frighteningly >high; it's not a step between the .45 and the 9mm, it is more powerful than >either one. Damage should be 1d10+1d4, equivalent to the other Magnum rounds.
I was assuming that the 10mm round they have listed in the DG book was the lower-velocity round the FBI adopted after the original proved to be too much for many agents. This round is about equal to the .40 S&W. I'm not sure of its velocity, but it's much lower than the original. However, I believe the original "hot" round is standard for the 10mm H&K MP-5 variant. And of course, I can't imagine DG agents using anything less than the most powerful round they can manage.
.50 AE damage: Don't let them talk you into allowing a silencer on one or hiding it from prying eyes in a shoulder or ankle holster. "Is that a tank in your shirt, or are you just happy to see me?" ;-)
It is a little bigger than the .44 Desert Eagle, I think, but it should still be concealable under the jackets of very big agents, say, SIZ 16 or bigger. Note that the round has some special, ridiculous classification, like "weapon of mass destruction," in US law. There's some additional crime they can slap you with for using it (not that DG types will have to worry too much about that).
I owned a .357 Desert Eagle for a time, and the term "hand cannon" is particularly apt. As a bit of verisimilitude to drop in, the DE really feels like you're operating an artillery piece—it's the way the action works. Kind of does a CLA-CHUNK thing when you fire, and the spent brass flies WAY over your head.
I had a player want to use Black Talon rounds recently. Are they still made (police only, I presume)? And can they really penetrate Kevlar vests, then act like a hollow-point round, only nastier? I heard a lot of rumors, but little in the way of hard facts.
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 00:02:53 -0500 (CDT)
From: Don Juneau
Yeah, SIZ 16 and such; I'm pretty big - 5-10, 300+ - and *I* can't really conceal it. (It's about the same deal with my MP5K pellet-gun; the trench-coat or my big jacket will cover, but once I move it's sorta blatant. <G>)
.50 AE is *not* classed as a "destructive device"; that'd be the .50 Browning Machine Gun (BMG) round, which makes your old standby .566 Nitro Express look puny. (Actually, it might be classed as such using AP/API projectiles, or used in a machine-gun. Last I'd heard, it was still available in civilian-legal [most places] single-shot/semi-auto weapons. The Maadi/Griffin single-shot carbine <! !ame in at 29 inches long [20.75 inch barrel], with scope weighed 19.5 pounds. The reviewer claimed recoil about the same as a 12-gauge. [Gun Digest Book of Assault Weapons, 3rd Ed. 1988].)
I had a player want to use Black Talon rounds recently. Are they still made (police only, I presume)? And can they really penetrate Kevlar vests, then act like a hollow-point round, only nastier? I heard a lot of rumors, but little in the way of hard facts.
They're still made, I think, but Law Enforcement use only. There are similar rounds out there for civilians, IIRC, but the "bad-ass" name and the associated reputation stayed with BT. No way they'll punch a vest, unless it's particularly piddly; it's essentially a hollow-point round, which will spend more energy on a larger area of the vest. To beat the vest, you need either a helluva lot of power (rifle calibre will do, unless they've got trauma plates and the like - according to my [possibly outdated] info), or a hard, heavy, sharp-pointed round, to pierce the weave. (Rumour sez that .22 Long Rifle can beat low-end vests, but I dunno how far I'd trust that one.)
Can't really have it both ways, to the best of my knowledge. My own choice would be BT or the like, with a backup mag or two of AP (also LE only), but then it'd also depend on my likelihood of running into armoured opponents. The idea behind BT is twofold - more damage to the target, *and* less chance of exiting and hitting someone else. (Military-style "ball" ammo is bad enough, for that.) AP on an unarmoured target will probably go a *looong* way.
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 01:36:20 -0400
From: "Jimmie Bise, Jr."
Black Talons are currently on the Federal No-No list for ammunition, though the manufacturer took it from general release a bit before that happened.
Essentially, they are Teflon hollow-point rounds, designed to penetrate kevlar-weave body armour (which is what the Teflon is for). The Kevlar Vests with the steel instert will still stop a Black Talon, though it's gonna leave one heck of a bruise in the morning, or sooner. Their sheer nastiness comes from their ability to tear through Teflon like Mr Squick at a Talking Heads concert. Basic police-issue body armour is no good against it, and, as I recall, it was made for several makes of weapon, but most notably for .9 mm postols/smgs. You could probably still find Black Talons at one of your more unsavoury gun shops, or on the street (though I'm not sure your basic DG Fed would be able to sleaze them up so easily owing to the lack of scuzziness necessary to score good stuff from the street).
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 01:05:25 -0600
From: "R.J. Andron"
I think that you're thinking of the KTW rounds—teflon-coated "cop-killers" as the media labelled them. They were banned back in the late '80s, early 90's.
Black talons are an expanding-tip projectile whose expansion is controlled by scoring running lengthwise in the bullet's jacket. The Black Talon's jacket will peel back along these scorings to 3/4 the bullet's length leaving razor-sharp edges along the peels. The bullet after expansion looks like a Japanese throwing star approximately 2 to 2.5 times the original diameter of the bullet.
Surgeons apparently hated these bullets because the sharp edges of the peeled jacket were able to cut through surgical gloves.
Based on their design, I think that these would have a really hard time penetrating kevlar. I don't know if these are still on the market.
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 20:14:53 -0400 (EDT)
From: The Man in Black
Only Black Talons, what a wuss. I recommend teflon coated, mercury tipped hollowpoint hotloads with frangible crystal neurotoxin micro-flechettes embedded in the mercury. For creatures with armour, I would go with depleted uranium AV rounds or those British AV rounds that use plastique explosive. Black Talons are glorified wadcutters, manufactured to better tolerances than most amateur gunsmiths are capable of. Moral: get a professional gunsmith as a contact for your cell.
This reminds me of the time my character John C. Goliath III (CEO of Goliath Weaponry Gmbh) wanted some air-cooled Browning .30 machine guns to do a drive by on the cultists' brownstone in the 1920's. The GM read the description "It is unlikely that the Investigators will ever get their hands on one of these weapons unless one of them is an arms manufacturer."
The cultists' temple looked even more "holey" after we were done.
Everyone seems to be forgetting Glaser Safety Slugs. IIRC No12 shot suspended in liquid teflon, Won't penetrate a vest but get hit anywhere unprotected and its a good bet you loose the limb or whatever plus to add to the infection debate liquid teflon is deadly inside the human body IIRC 99% lethal. The bullet basically puts all its kinetic energy into the target at one point (that's why your arm isn't there anymore :-)
They were designed to prevent (I can't spell the word but its something like rico-shays. Just say it out loud!) by disintegrating on impact. Pretty nasty and besides why not have 2 guns one with AP rounds and one with Safety slugs ;-)
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 10:26:47 +0200
From: Phil Ward
Vests! I've heard a story about one of those bouncing off a guy's metallic shirt button! But they are extremely nasty for soft targets…
They were designed to prevent (I can't spell the word but its soemthing like rico-shays. Just say it out loud!)
Ricochet (I think).
Yeah, why not have two guns, one in each hand :-)
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 02:49:09 -0700
From: Joseph Camp
Everyone seems to be forgetting Glazer "Safety" Slugs.
I've been told that these were developed for the U.S. Sky Marshals, the folks responsible for transporting prisoners on airplanes. The Glazer rounds won't penetrate an aircraft's walls, owing to their dispersion/scatter design—they're like shooting someone at point-blank range with a .410 shotgun (aka a "varmint gun"). Quite nasty if they hit you, since fragments spiral throughout your body. The risk of passing through an airplane seat or a target and striking an innocent bystander is also much less since they scatter on impact rather than punching through, which likewise makes them handy for household use—much less of a chance to kill your child in the next room while firing wildly at a home-invasion specialist.
Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 00:09:04 +0900
From: Jay and Mikiko Noyes
Say, has anyone used Glazer Safety Rounds in their game? Any rules made up for them? The real thing is a real damage doer against unarmoured targets. The shell delivers a package comprising b-b pellets suspended in a teflon gel, all encased in a shell. When the shell hits a target, it explodes, causing damage similar to that of a shotgun at point-blank range. Even glancing hits have a tendency to blow off limbs, and the teflon gel is eventually lethal if it enters the bloodstream. Has the advantage of not punching through walls to kill someone three houses away.
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 11:40:27 -0400
From: Graeme Price
Never actually used them in CoC (Cyberpunk is another matter….), but if I remember right, the 90's handbook suggests a basic +4 to damage against unarmoured targets, and halving damage against vests or armoured targets.
Clunky but easy. I also agree that these would be the real deal for law enforcement and anti-terrorist types who need to stop richochets and put a target down first time. Not sure about the "liquid teflon entering the bloodstream being 99% fatal" thing. Although I guess it will screw up the bloodstream royally (embolism anyone?), I suppose it really depends on how much gets into circulation: bullets are small, but teflon goes a long way.
Anyone with any better medical data? Not sure what this means in game terms- - it guess it could be handled via the usual CoC impale rules though.
BTW, I recall that the restrictions on hollow points imposed by the Geneva Convention doesn't apply to law enforcement types. Can anyone confirm or deny this?
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 10:50:08 -0600
From: "R.J. Andron"
There was an article some time ago on wound ballistics, which showed ballistic tracks for several types of ammunition, including the Glaser Safety Slug. Based on that, I would suspect that Glasers are not as effective as their myths make them out to be.
The GSS track showed a roughly tennis-ball sized temporary wound cavity with the microshot radiating out no further than 4 inches from the point of impact. Of course, this was in ballistic gelatin, so the performance against human targets, with bones, varying tissue density, and so forth can only be approximated. As far as I know, GSS have not been used in anger.
However, comparing the wound track to that caused by a more traditional round, such as a 9mm FMJ, would suggest that GSS are actually LESS effective. Consider:
1. GSS will bounce off bones, while 9mm will bend or break bones.
2. The wound track of the 9mm reaches deeper and both temporary and permanent cavities are of a much greater volume than that of the GSS. While the GSS is shredding an area close to the skin, the 9mm is shredding areas deep inside, and reaching vital organs.
3. The myth of GSS dumping all its energy into the target does not bear up under close scrutiny. Bullets which lodge in the body also expend all their energy in the target. Arguably much more damage is caused by bullets which pass right through the body, creating a massive exit wound.
On the other hand, I have seen photos of kevlar panels hit by GSS. These panels were completely shredded and ineffective for follow-on shots. There does not seem to have been any penetration beyond the kevlar by the GSS that initially shredded the panel.
In game terms, I would give GSS much less damage capability than FMJ rounds in the same calibre. The selling point of these bullets is their low penetration, not their lethality—and that's why the Air Marshals are paying US $6 per bullet for them.
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 12:51:57 EDT
From: Michael Layne
Well, looking in the back of my copy of "Compendium of Modern Firearms" (Kevin Dockery, Talasorian Games), I find a 2-page damage table listing damage from various calibre's and varieties of rounds (in several systems, including CoC and Twilight 2000). However, the chart is only for ball ammo. Following the damage table, they give conversion data for other bullet types, including a couple of types of hollow-point and "Pre-fragmented (Glaser". If I'm reading this right, the Light Jacketed Hollowpoint and Jacketed Hydra-Shock rounds do 5x the damage of a FMJ round, with significantly reduced penetration, while the Glaser does 10x the damage, at something like half the penetration of the Light Jacketed Hollowpoint.
If anybody else out there has a copy of the "Compendium", perhaps they can check me on this…
I also recall that in many of Gardner's novels, James Bond seems to carry an ASP 9mm automatic, loaded with Glasers. The description Gardner gives of the construction and effectiveness of the Glaser round is very similar to those I've seen for it on the list here.
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 21:18:13 +0000
From: "Taz"
The Glaser system was developed specifically for use by counter-terrorist teams on-board aircraft. As has been previously stated in the thread, the round has virtually no penetration value but a VERY high hydro-shock value.
The development was primarily in response to the wave of Islamic hijackings in the late 70's (IIRC). Many countries started putting teams of agents/troops armed with these weapons on 'high risk' flights - many times in co-operation with other countries. For some strange reason the incidence of hijackings dropped off dramatically after two hijackings were prematurely brought to a close.
Glasers are hopeless against any sort of protection or cover - they won't penetrate an aircraft seat or two telephone directories - but in the hands of someone who can hit what he/she aims at… OUCH! Primarily, they were used in lightweight 'Airguard' revolvers. These were specially developed for this role (by a VERY reputable maker) and were 3 inch barrelled, 5 shot, smooth-bore, revolvers. The bullets were given a minimal charge (again, to limit 'collateral' damage) and so had a 'kill range' of 15-20 feet.
As a true story, a friend of mine had a license to test his ammunition for 'the humane destruction of livestock'. He tried shooting a goat in the head from 10 yards with a 'stock' .38 FMJ round. The bullet bounced and the goat just shook it's head! He then tried again with a glaser round. Voila! Headless goat.
Needless to say, the 'Airguard' is totally restricted and the Glaser round is banned (although a few specific military teams do still have both in the armoury… just in case).
The gun and ammo feature (well, the start od Ch.2) in the Gardner-ised James Bond novel 'For Special Services'. Worth a view.
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 21:18:13 +0000
From: "Taz"
Please see my earlier message on GSS. But I have to respond to this one.
Rant mode on
As far as I know, GSS have not been used in anger.
Respectfully, yes they have. I can't remember the details, but an aircraft hijack was stopped virtually on instigation by a team of undercover SAS troops. IIRC the event was on a military flight and was just barely alluded to in some military journals.
1. GSS will bounce off bones, while 9mm will bend or break bones.
And potentially ricochet…
2. The wound track of the 9mm reaches deeper and both temporary and permanent cavities are of a much greater volume than that of the GSS. While the GSS is shredding an area close to the skin, the 9mm is shredding areas deep inside, and reaching vital organs.
Agreed, but again, you suffer blow-through with 9mm FMJ. All FMJ, and in particular 9mm, is designed to penetrate armour at short range and to fly well over longer ranges. GSS was designed specifically for the opposite.
3. The myth of GSS dumping all its energy into the target does not bear up under close scrutiny. Bullets which lodge in the body also expend all their energy in the target. Arguably much more damage is caused by bullets which pass right through the body, creating a massive exit wound.
The problem is, at the ranges that GSS were designed to be used (sub-10m) a 'standard' FMJ will blow through most targets. GSS is specifically designed NOT to blow through targets at close range.
On the other hand, I have seen photos of kevlar panels hit by GSS. These panels were completely shredded and ineffective for follow-on shots. There does not seem to have been any penetration beyond the kevlar by the GSS that initially shredded the panel.
This is as expected.
In game terms, I would give GSS much less damage capability than FMJ rounds in the same calibre. The selling point of these bullets is their low penetration, not their lethality—and that's why the Air Marshals are paying US $6 per bullet for them.
NO! Against an unarmoured target, at very short ranges, GSS will do more damage that FMJ. Ask yourself this question… at 10ft range which would you rather be shot by; a) a 9mm FMJ; or b) a shotgun? My answer is the 9mm. At that range, the kinetic energy of the 9mm will take it straight thru' a body (unless it hits a major bone) without slowing down, whereas the shotgun would dissipate all of its (admittedly lesser) KE in the body. Having said all of that, I would obviously prefer not to be shot at all!!
I think, when all is said and done, that you have to consider what the ammunition was made for. FMJ, Hollow-point, etc, were designed to penetrate armour and kill at ranges out to around 150ft and who cares about blow-through at short ranges. GSS were designed to counter a specific threat - aircraft hijacking. In this situation, blow-through is the major consideration - I mean, what's the point in having a round that can penetrate body armour and kill at 90ft when
a) hijackers don't tend to wear body armour (I find it difficult to convince airport security staff that it's just for my own protection!);
b) if I blow-through a target and penetrate the aircraft skin at 30K ft, it's more than likely to be good night vienna for all aboard; and c) combat on an aircraft tends to be at 10-20ft max.
Rant mode off
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 14:24:30 -0700
From: Phil A Posehn
I was under the impression that the whole Sky Marshall program was killed after one of them accidentally shot long time Hollywood character actor Victor Sen Young during an attempted hijacking back in the '70s. When did they start it up again??
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 16:40:19 -0500
From: Nightstar
I have never heard of these before. Are they shotgun shells or various calibers? Are they legal in the United States? This is a very interesting piece of ammunition. I would like to know more about it. If anyone can offer any more information, I would appreciate it.
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 19:09:22 EDT
From: moc.loa|sodnamI#moc.loa|sodnamI
Are you saying that Glaser rounds are banned by law for private citizens? Glaser and the new Blue Dot [heavier rounds for some penetration of thicker clothing] are both legal to own and use. Local gunshops sell them at around $17 for eight rounds.
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 19:24:59 EDT
From: moc.loa|5PMyllekgM#moc.loa|5PMyllekgM
In a message dated 98-06-24 19:20:29 EDT, you write:
Local gunshops sell them at around $17 for eight rounds.
Damn, where do you live that you get Glasers so cheap? It cost me $22 for six .357 rounds and that was the least expensive that I could find. Concerning gaming and real life both, they're expensive, but you get what you pay for. I heard a figure once that they had something like a 96% kill ratio against torso shots in the .380 caliber (for those who don't know, .380's are small hold-out guns. Relatively speaking, they don't deposit their kinetic energy very well. Personal opinion, only good as a back-up for the back-up).
Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 09:12:30 +0000
From: "Taz"
Sorry, should have been more explicit. They are restricted in the UK.
Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 09:21:07 +0900
From: "David Farnell"
Thanks for all the lovely info on Black Talons folks. I'd heard reports that they'd drill through vests before, but I never believed it. After all, you don't get the "claws" until the round has expanded, and it doesn't expand until it's in soft tissue, right? So how could it use the claws to cut through the vest? Still, a pretty nasty hollow-point, especially if you hate trauma surgeons.
Responding to Nightstar, Taz, RJ, Graeme, et al, re: Glazer Safety Slugs:
I have never heard of these before. Are they shotgun shells or various >calibers? Are they legal in the United States?
Just a quick recap: Glazers are normal-sized rounds for pistols and rifles (the rifle rounds are rather less common), available in a variety of calibre's. There are two main types, the most common being the "blue-tip" (the other one, the "silver-tip," may be law-enforcement only, and I have no experience with it). Technical stats aside, the "bullet" is a hollow shell packed with small shot, with liquid teflon filling the spaces between the shot. The blue tip is a plastic (rubber) cap holding it all in. When the shell hits the target, if the target is soft, it penetrates, shooting all those tiny balls out through the target (that's why it's called "pre-fragmented"). If the target is hard, the shell just kind of splats, and nobody gets hurt (although I guess a ricocheting ball could put an eye out).
Back in my NRA days, I remember reading a couple of articles about glazers being used by cops in actual shootouts. I seem to remember that, during a desperate fight, a heroic cop shot a monstrous perp (hey, it was an NRA magazine, OK?) in the torso. The coroner was pulling those little shot balls out of the guy's legs, about down to his knees. That's how far they'll travel under perfect circumstances. Another story said that a glazer went in but failed to break up, meaning that it was nothing but a rather lightweight bullet that didn't expand. The perp wasn't hurt all that badly.
Keep in mind that ballistic gelatin is notorious for returning very different results than real-life shootings.
Arguably much more damage is caused by bullets which pass right through the body, creating a massive exit wound.
Very controversial, that. Of course, if the bullet expands, causes massive internal damage, AND passes through to cause a massive exit wound, well, that would be a good thing (if you're not on the receiving end), but usually it either expands and stays in, or it fails to expand and passes through.
When the shell hits a target, it explodes, >causing damage similar to that of a shotgun at point-blank range. Even >glancing hits have a tendency to blow off limbs, and the teflon gel is >eventually lethal if it enters the bloodstream. Has the advantage of not >punching through walls to kill someone three houses away.
Actually, it's more like it explodes INSIDE the target—worse than a shotgun at point-blank range, except you don't get the lovely gas expansion and powder-burn effects. Of course, a .357 round is a pretty tiny shotgun going off inside, but it's enough. I've never heard of limbs getting blown off, and I have no idea of the lethality of the teflon—I don't think it matters much. And the not-punching-though-walls characteristic is why I bought them in the first place. Didn't want to kill my neighbour accidentally (only on purpose).
The bullets were given a minimal charge (again, to limit 'collateral' >damage) and so had a 'kill range' of 15-20 feet…. >Needless to say, the 'Airguard' is totally restricted and the Glaser >round is banned (although a few specific military teams do still have >both in the armoury… just in case).
The glazers I had were VERY hot rounds—although they were very lightweight "bullets," the powder charge made them kick quite firmly in a .357 magnum. Certainly, they are available in the US to ordinary citizens (local restrictions may apply), unless there was a provision in the recent gun laws I didn't hear about (wouldn't be surprising). In any case, they were legal the last time I was in the USA (about 2 years ago). There's no sane reason to make them illegal (unless you mean making ALL ammo and guns illegal), as they are actually safer in the sense of less chance of bystanders getting killed. Of course, the same is true of hollow-points, and some local laws restrict hollow-points to law-enforcement only.
The Air Marshal glazer was probably very different from the one available to the hoi polloi, though. Perhaps it was the silver-tip version?
As far as I remember, glazers were available in most common pistol calibre's, including magnums. They may not have been available in .25 calibre—I'm not sure on that. I also saw them in a few rifle calibre's, mainly .308, .30-06, and .30-30. Why? For hunting, of course! ("Look, a duck-billed platypus. IT'S COMING RIGHT FOR US!" BLAM!) They are less reliable than more conventional ammo, but when they work, they work big-time. If they hit a kevlar vest, I would say reduce the damage to 0 or 1, or give maybe 1d3 of stun-only damage. If they get a good solid hit on an unprotected person, give pretty massive damage, maybe double or maximum or something like that. Flesh wounds might just be regular flesh wounds—if the shell doesn't penetrate, it can't do its special expansion.
They may be less accurate than more standard ammo, and may have shorter range, but the blue-tips anyway have enough of a powder charge that they're not very-short-range-only.
How about other exotic rounds? There was an armour-piercer that was commonly called the "cookie-cutter" because it was basically a flying tubular buzzsaw. I don't know if it actually pierced armour, but the idea was that it would slice a little tube through the target, killing through massive blood-loss. Never made much sense to me—folks can shoot back many times while dying of blood loss. Then there was a sort of hybrid—a glazer-like round with the cookie-cutter on top. I think it was supposed to get deeper penetration before exploding. Looked like it was guaranteed to fail 9 times out of 10.
I mainly stuck with Silvertips (a rather nice-quality hollowpoint), mainly because they happened to be the most accurate thing in that particular pistol. I tried lots of other ammo, and I could hit more often with Silvertips, and if you don't hit…
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 18:23:09 -0600
From: "R.J. Andron"
With respect to the shotgun/9mm analogy—GSS are not shotgun projectiles. A shotgun at 15 feet (5 metres) has a pattern diameter of approx 150 mm (~6 inches)and is composed of nine "00" pellets. The sheer volume of flesh and blood that is torn apart in that particular case is frightening, to say the least. A GSS will come nowhere near to that volume of destruction at any point in its trajectory. Comparing GSS to shotguns is making an analogy which can be misleading.
With respect to the argument that the GSS is more damaging because it dissipates (transfers/dumps) all its Kinetic Energy in the body, I have to say that Energy Transfer is not a reliable predictor of human injury. Injury depends upon the volume of organs shredded, blood vessels ruptured, bones shattered, and most important of all—the location of the injury. There is no direct or linear correlation between energy transferred to the body by a bullet and the bullet's lethality or incapacitation of the target.
This is why all guns are lethal—there are many serious injuries and fatalities each year from children shot by .22 rifles (or similar low-powered ammunition) while out "plinking." (The .22LR is rated as 1d6 damage in DG).
With regards to relative lethality of GSS, the GSS does not have the penetration required to reach and damage/disrupt as many vital organs as a more conventional round does. Using the CoC system's concept of hit points as a quantifiable unit of injury, the GSS should be rated at much less "damage capacity" as an equivalent calibre conventional round simply because it can't sufficiently shred the organs to cause death. (Ideally, I'd like to move away from a hit-points based system and towards a location-based system to determine gunshot damage in RPGs—this would be much more representative of modern firearms. But CoC has had the same system for almost 20 years. Oh well.)
With regards to the issue of over-penetration—it is a concern as stated where a shooter is concerned about injury to bystanders or damage to an aircraft. However, it is a leap (and IMO, an incorrect one) to presume that a bullet which does not over-penetrate causes more damage than one that does. It simply ain't so, for the reasons stated above.
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 22:18:30 EDT
From: moc.loa|sodnamI#moc.loa|sodnamI
Mgkelly asked:
Damn, where do you live that you get Glasers so cheap?
Morgantown, West Virginia.
I have an eight pack of Blue Dot ammo in front of me right now. They were put out as an advanced form of the Glaser round. It seems there was a problem with Glaser rounds penetrating winter clothing. The Blue Dot bullet is a slightly heavier grain bullet and overcomes the thick clothing problem without losing the safe features of the Glaser round. My ammo is 9mm and the box cost $16.95. It was bought last October at a local gunshop. Glaser rounds cost the same but may be only six to a box. I don't have the original boxes for the twenty four Glaser rounds I have in the Glocks I own. I have around 16 of the Blue Dots around here and may test them at the range with the Glasers soon. I have never fired the Glaser or Blue Dot rounds. The Federal Hydra-Shok and American Eagle rounds being more cost effective for target shooting {esp. when you shoot a hundred rounds a week}.
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 22:24:36 EDT
From: moc.loa|sodnamI#moc.loa|sodnamI
I noticed something on the Blue Dot container after sending the previous email about Glaser rounds. It states that a 9mm Blue Dot/Glaser round produces as much energy as a .357 Mag. round. It doesn't say the .357 load, but any .357mag round is far more impressive, as a first shot and drop round, than a 9mm. For the 9mm to achieve this high a take out rate is a real surprise. I wonder what the power of the .44mag Blue Dot/Glaser would be like?
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 22:44:59 -0400
From: "Elliot Rushing"
1. Let's not forget that by far the most statistically dangerous calibre remains the tiny .22LR round, for years (and still counting) the number one killer (statistically, in terms of actual homicides) in the U.S. Small, cheap, most actual gunfights are at ranges of 7 feet or less, what more do ya want? It's a nasty way to go, too, the bullet has enough force to *enter* your skull, but not enough to exit, so it just bounces around in there, back and forth, shredding your mind. Yummy.
2. 'Nother zinger — .22 and .25 cal. guns are cheap, cheap, cheap. Desert Eagles are expensive (and *heavy*, you gun-toting-for-50-hours-a-week agents). Not a problem for your average DG agent, but, hey, cultists gotta buy candles, baby. Not to mention the purple robe.
3. Until very recently, overwhelmingly the carry firearm of choice for criminals was the small revolver — easy to conceal, cheap, and most importantly, easy to use. There's a trend toward automatics, but thankfully, most gangbangers are lousy shots (especially when they hold the damn things sideways — thanks, Hollywood!). Experienced cons still know the value of "6 for sure." A way Keepers can reflect and use this is to give their experienced criminals small revolvers and high skill levels. Watch your agents smirk overconfidently, then recoil in surprise! Enjoy. ;)
4. It's *really* tempting to evaluate weapons based on ballistic gel tests, predicted wound channels, and so forth. In reality, however, while this information is generally useful and valuable (and well worth modelling game rules on), this stuff mostly sells bullets and gun magazines. Keepers should remember and *use* the reality that, in general, absolute terms, handguns are under powered — compared even to other small arms such as combat (hunting) rifles and shotguns — and in the real world kill mainly through blood loss, unless your shot placement is quite good (usually rare in a tactical situation unless you've got a battle-hardened shooter or point-blank range).
Imagine, if you will (thanks, Carl Sagan) that your body is made up of little blocks, all the same size. In some parts of your body (say, a lower leg, or even your torso), you could lose a lot of blocks and keep going. In other parts (say, just above your left ear) losing even *one* block could mean instant death. Or not. Keeper's choice. Gotta love it.
5. Also, a poster mentioned the .380 as a last-resort holdout round. Maybe in 1998, but not historically. The .380, also known as the 9mm short, or in Europe as the 9mm corto or 9mm kurtz round, was a mainstay (or so I've heard) in European police forces until pretty recently (for detective weapons, and so forth). Bond's famous Walther PPK was presumably a .380 (the only other choice is .32!) — and remember he was forced to change over to the "manlier" .380 from his preferred weapon, a .25 Beretta! Both weapons, by the way, are light enough to carry all day long without body aches, in true Bond style. ;)
Today, the .380 is hamstrung a bit by its smaller case size (limiting the amount of possible powder grains) and the tolerances of the weapons chambered for the round. Still, a relatively potent calibre at short range, for a handgun. Sure, the larger calibre's are *possibly*, perhaps even *probably* better, but see #4. ;)
My point here is, let your players pick what they want to carry - a detective snub revolver, a Walther PPK, or a .50 cal Desert Eagle (Hello, Doan's backache pills!)— any of the weapons *could* kill with one shot under the right circumstances, and any of them could fail to kill under other circumstances.
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 23:31:59 EDT
From: moc.loa|noehctucsE#moc.loa|noehctucsE
To answer some questions raised about which ammo is legal:
Glazer Safety Slugs - As far as I know, still legal in most U.S. states (Some states may have tougher laws, but my current home state of Arizona does not restrict purchase). Perhaps the gentleman who thought that GSS are restricted was talking about the U.K.
Hollowpoints - O.K. for use by law enforcement (but not military).
High Explosive Rounds - A federal firearm license is required to purchase these rounds (In most U.S. states, other than New Hampshire or Arizona, you will basically have to be a gun dealer).
Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 00:56:59 -0700
From: Joseph Camp <moc.neerg-atled|esnohpla#moc.neerg-atled|esnohpla>
I'd suggest doing a net search for them for more info—the manufacturer may even have a site. My limited knowledge of them suggests they are made in handgun calibre's (9mm, .38, that sort of thing) and, in the United States at least, are legal for civilians. I've personally seen them for sale in gun stores as recently as two months ago, and have an associate who purchased some just a couple weeks back for personal use.
In my opinion, they're not a bad idea for agents to carry because of their lack of collateral damage, which is a good thing given our need to avoid excessive documentation of our actions. However, I'm not a firearms expert and certainly defer to the more knowledgeable COs on the list.
Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 09:17:46 +0000
From: "Taz"
[EXCISED]
In my opinion, they're not a bad idea for agents to carry because of their lack of collateral damage, which is a good thing given our need to avoid excessive documentation of our actions. However, I'm not a firearms expert and certainly defer to the more knowledgeable COs on the list.
I would have to agree with you, but for one small problem… Most of the nasties my group meet (particularly if they are 'investigating' a hard site) tend to be wearing some form of body armour (as seems fairly common these days, particularly in the US). This, unfortunately, makes GSS rounds virtually useless - unless they make a called shot to an unprotected area. Indeed, most shooters, when trained for combat shooting, are taught to instinctively put their shots to the centre of mass (ie the chest area) - which is covered by most vests…
Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 19:04:48 +0900
From: Jay and Mikiko Noyes
Heh. When I was a kid, you could go to Walmart and buy what was called the "Bucket o' Bullets." About 5lbs. of 22LR loose in a plastic bucket. Cost about $10. Great for plinking.
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 00:23:45 +1000
From: Rob Shankly
(Long long cut)
Isn't it interesting the way everyone has a theory on small arms ammunition, even the weird stuff.
The DG scenario "Melbourne: The Right Place" I co-wrote with Anthony Baxter early this year featured some opponents armed with 9mm Parabellum calibre weapons. These were loaded with GSSs, which we rated as d10+d6 damage, _minimum _possible_ damage_ against armoured or protected targets.
The reasoning behind the 2 points damage for those in armour was simple enough- from what I've read there is almost zero chance of any part of a GSS passing through modern protection, but there is still some shock to be absorbed. Since our bad guys were in SWAT-issue kevlar, and the investigators were in street clothes, it also tilted the odds severely in firefights where they used captured arms.
The relatively high "normal" damage was extrapolated from the DG book and the "Investigators Companion" (Chaosium), which gives damages for bullets other than normal ball. The IC gives a flat +2 bonus for normal hollow-point rounds. I argue that +d3 is more in the spirit of the thing (a bullet can still cause a graze, even if it's loaded with lead azide), with a +d4 damage for Hydra-Shok rounds and +d6 for GSSs. Other Keepers may feel the damage is too high but it seemed to work OK. A has been noted elsewhere, teflon is poisonous, and the wounds produced by GSSs are apparently almost impossible to dress: the "tennis ball" shaped wound is pulped, rather than torn. Messy.
In the game it worked pretty well. None of the players had any idea what a Glaser was, and it was pretty spooky when the bad-guy's bullets went "splat" against armoured glass and threw black milky stuff in all directions… (the bad guys were using GSSs because there was a device they didn't want to put holes in). It is worth noting the that the scenario was set in Australia, where the import of GSSs is banned (not even the cops can get them).
Moving on a bit, I read somewhere that GSS are produced in a variety of calibre's, up to and including .50, for use by police snipers. I'm not sure this is true, but if it is the next drive-by shooting by one of MiB's characters should be pretty memorable.
Moving on again, there is a nice fictional write-up of GSSs in Thomas Harris' "The Silence of the Lambs"- <MILD SPOILER> Clarice Starling gets to use them on the psycho.
Moving a lot further, there are a number of "cute" things that could be done to ammunition:
I cannot imagine that the result is safe (anyone tried this?) but apparently bullets of .38 and larger can be hollowed and filled with explosive (i.e mercuric fulminate). It is plain that this would *really* damage the target, but there must be a danger of the round exploding when fired.
In "The Day of the Jackal" Freddie Forsyth's assassin hollows a rifle bullet and then fills it with mercury. Splat!
On a quieter note, an airgun dart could be coated with tetrodatoxin (from poisonous octopi or an anaesthesiologist) which stops the victim's lungs from working puff puff puff.
Finally, has anyone ever considered the damage results for armour-piercing flechettes (the kind fired from an assault rifle)? My guess is that the damage would be similar to ball.
And moving on to a completely different topic, the most essential look for any field investigator is surely a trusty Swiss Army knife!
Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 18:26:00 +0000
From: "Taz"
I once read an interesting story about an assasination;
It has been proposed that an CO2 gun could shoot these 'bullets'. A lot of fiction (particularly Mission Impossible) writers use this sort of thing to drug someone without leaving a trace. Seems to me you'd need some sort of refrigerated magazine to keep them in… Icecream anyone?
Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 14:17:13 EDT
From: moc.loa|9lhD#moc.loa|9lhD
Someone asked about the Glaser in a .44. The .44 is a notoriously poor man-stopper because of over-penetration. I wonder if the Glaser is any different.
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 15:39:39 -0700
From: Phil A Posehn
I once knew a guy in a motorcycle club who altered his ammo. He would take .44 Magnum solid lead bullets and drill a hole down the center (he knew how far to go without punching through). He would then fill the hole with mercury and lightly touch the tip with a torch to close it over with the lead.
Did he prepare these rounds indoors? If so, I hope you weren't around!!! "Touching the tip with a torch" is going to vaporise some of the mercury along with melting the lead to seal it!!! The effects of inhaling Hg vapor are nasty and cumulative!! They include palsy, hair loss, bleeding gums and if you get enough, dementia and death.
Far better to seal the round with wax.
It might be cool to let your party hear about this method though, make a know roll to see if they are aware of the toxic nature of Hg vapor, and if not roll against con.
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 08:36:51 +0900
From: "David Farnell"
I will note that a helluva lot of people *are* killed with the good ol' >.22 Long Rifle round each year…
Excellent point. Part of the reason that all this talk about wound cavities and ballistics and powder charges and such are pretty much hot air. As someone noted earlier, it mainly sells gun magazines. Damage occurs in unpredictable ways. We have a very simple damage system in CoC, and personally, I think it's OK because I like combat fast and dirty. I sometimes use hit location rules, but not much.
It's good to get some info on these things to add some realism to the game—DG agents generally make guns a pretty intimate part of their lives. And if we can relate it to the game, fine. But let's not let arguments about various kinds of bullets take over the whole list, OK? It's starting to sound like a medieval theological argument in here. (And yes, I know I've added to it—hell, I got it all off to a start with that Black Talon question. Mea culpa!) Remember, there's plenty of info on the web, too.
Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 20:45:16 -0500 (CDT)
From: Don Juneau
Ever hear of the Semmerling LM-4?
I'd heard of it, but I don't recall seeing one other than in G&A once. As for the short-barrels, I can live with a slightly lowered effectiveness; I'd rather add a zero-length compensator to control the the beastie enough to allow follow-up shots. With even the P.12.45/P.10.45, the barrel is short enough to cut into your muzzle-energy anyways…
I heard the C.O.P. .357 was no better than the average derringer accuracy wise.
Accuracy schmaccuracy, I sez. 4 rounds of hot-load .357 in *that* tidy a package will make up for it, and in any event it's for point'n'shoot ranges, much like most other true backups. (If the muzzle touches the target, to-hit rolls are redundant.)
Someone asked about the Glaser in a .44. The .44 is a notoriously poor manstopper because of overpenetration. I wonder if the Glaser is any different.
Supposed to be better; of course, a lot of my "data" originated in RED DRAGON, by Thomas Harris. Of course, the .44 Mag has it's uses - just ask that DG bunnies & guppies cop from Fish & Wildlife. ("Hey, that .44 won't stop a Hound of Tindalos." "It's not the Hounds I'm worried about… look behind you." "Hi, I'm Mr. Bear, call me Kodiak. I unnerstand you got a problem with my cousin Winnie?") Not that *I* would want to play pistolero versus a furry mountain; much like Cthulhu, 'tis best to be where they *aren't*.
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 02:33:30 -0400
From: Ngo Vinh-Hoi
Black Talons are currently on the Federal No-No list for ammunition,
You're probably confusing it with the KTW round or the more recent Rhino round (which was never released and to my knowledge, never even demonstrated publicly—another case of pure manufacturer hype). The KTW was teflon-coated and theoretically armour-piercing, but it was not a hollowpoint. As for teflon-coated bullets somehow being better at penetrating body armour, that is misinformation—what you need to punch through modern body armour is a very hard, dense penetrator, such as a tungsten-alloy core bullet; these bullets tend to be very hard on the typical gun barrel and are thus sometimes coated with teflon to reduce barrel wear.
Also, Winchester slightly redesigned the Black Talon bullet and simply renamed it the Ranger SXT round which is readily available to civilians as well as cops. Just another case of what's in a name, I guess. In any event, the Black Talon was never a "magic bullet/death ray", just a modern, well-designed hollow-point that could be counted on to expand reliably without often exiting the human body. The un-PC name and the nasty-looking serrated jacket doomed it from the start, however.
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 18:34:06 -0000
From: "Crossingham, Adam"
Sorry, but here's more stuff on guns. I've never even shot one, but I did some searching on the Web, did some reading, and came to some conclusions. Having to fend off a rabid Gun-nut player for several years has prepared me though. Apologies in advance for bad gun terminology and poor descriptions of the mechanics of Physics.
Observation 1: Glasers aren't 99% fatal - but they have '1 shot stop' potential.
I offer two quotes in my defence.
1. You can survive, just: 'This particular patient was shot with a glaser safety slug. It is designed to disperse on hitting soft tissue. The patient has many pellets in his neck and brain. He ended up being paralysed and ventilator dependent.' Cited from http://www.stamhealth.org/surgery/head.html . This page isn't as gory as it sounds - it's a CAT scan, not a photo, and shows the track of the pellets in the skull.
2. Glasers don't kill instantly: 'The best example is the Glaser Safety Slug, a projectile designed to break up on impact and generate a large but shallow temporary cavity. Fackler, when asked to estimate the survival time of someone shot in the front mid-abdomen with a Glaser slug, responded, "About three days, and the cause of death would be peritonitis."' Cited from http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm This article defines a one shot stop 'as one in which the subject dropped, gave up, or did not run more than 10 feet.'
For game purposes a 'one shot stop' is one where the target is either killed instantly, or suffers enough damage to fall unconscious, or suffers a major wound (more than half HPs) and fails a CON roll. An average human has 11 - 12 HPs, so a 'one shot stop' must do at least 7 points of damage, the minimum increasing of course with larger, fitter people. Therefore to simulate Glasers must have a high minimum damage, which the 1990s Handbook gives.
Observation 2: Glasers are 'safety slugs' not manstoppers.
I offer in my defence the Glaser homepage at http://www.safetyslug.com .
Glaser stress high velocity, shorter travel times which mean their rounds are more accurate - that is, you hit what you aim at because wind, branches and other stuff don't get in the way. And once that you hit, you won't hit anything else because the bullet stops in the target (it doesn't over-penetrate).
Observation 3: The increased damage is a by-product of the Glaser design not the desired result.
Glasers rounds appear to be lighter than other rounds of the samecalibre, presumably to achieve the desired higher velocities for accuracy. However this would reduce the effectiveness of the bullet if it was a normal unfragmented bullet, and would lead to over-penetration. By replacing the bullet with shot the designers reduced the chance of over -penetration, and added back some damage lost by reducing the weight of the bullet.
moc.loa|9lhD#moc.loa|9lhD wrote:
Someone asked about the Glaser in a .44. The .44 is a notoriously poor manstopper because of overpenetration. I wonder if the Glaser is any different.
The Glaser homepage recommends that 10mm and .44 NOT be used if over-penetration is an issue.
Now if you don't like the fast and dirty Glaser rules in the 1990s Handbook, I have a set of alternative rules suggestions which might be to your liking. They are based on the observations above, and stress knockout damage over normal damage to simulate a 'one shot stop'.
1. GSSs do maximum rolled damage plus rolled damage (i.e. 9mm Para GSS does 10 + 1d10 damage). The round still impales as normal (roll damage twice I believe)
2. Apply damage against target's HPs as knockout damage, in which the target resists damage against his HP. If he fails he falls unconscious; if he succeeds he stays conscious. In either result the target takes a 1/3 of the total damage as fatal damage. It is possible that the normal damage inflicted could constitute a major wound so a CON roll to stay conscious would ensure.
In our 9mm Para example, the average damage at the end of the process would be 5 points of normal damage. However the target would have had to successfully resisted 15 -16 points of knockout damage first, which with 11 - 12 HPs would give an average person a 30% chance. If the target was really unlucky, the knockout damage could be 31, and the normal damage 10 points. Things get worse however, if the shooter impales….
Perhaps reliant on too many saving throws, but any thoughts anyone?
Here's one - Glasers are good against cultists, not against the cultists' patrons.