 |
What follows is an archival copy of public information. Content herein is believed to be of historical interest to Delta Green fandom and should remain untouched, as a sign of respect for the original author(s). The article must be removed on request by copyright holders, if any. Please improve the wiki with living documents inspired by the ideas here. |
 |
The following material was imported from the Ice Cave. |
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 12:56:42 -0600
From: Eric Brochu
Information for non-Americans: As a fellow midwesterner, I have to say thta the above is pretty much true. My hometown easily has more pistols, rifles, and shotguns than people, and more than a couple fully automatic weapons. I would like to point out, however, that gunshot-related homicides are _extremely_ rare.
At the risk of going off topic: Hunh?? The statistic I usually see is that firearms are involved in about 75% of US homicides, and the US has a per-capita murder rate several times that of just about any other industrialized nation (possibly excepting Russia).
And to go back on topic: I recently read the book "Cause of Death", a manual for mystery/crime/action writers about the title subject. There's lots of good stuff there about how various types of murder and mayhem can be inflicted on (and by) human beings, and a lot of info about gunshot wounds. Probably not worth buying, but well worth checking out from the library. Great for adding tasty morbid touches to a Delta Green investigation. The chapter on autopsies alone gave me ideas for a half-dozen scenes I plan to use to scare (or at least disgust) my players…
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 15:41:00 -0400
From: "Jimmie Bise, Jr."
Well, what you've said is true, as far as it goes. What we really should mention is that there is a huge difference still between small cities and large ones, and an even larger gulf between cities and the "rest" of the country. Most of the crime, especially gun violence, occurs in the cities - mainly the larger ones. I worked as a dispatcher for a police department whose coverage area encompassed the suburban county of Washington, DC (a city with the highest per-capita murder rate in the world), and in my nine years, homicides were a rare event. Admittedly, that is changing as the influence of the city encroaches more on the county, nevertheless, homicides are not an everyday occurrence. My area, despite all that, has a huge number of guns, both handguns, and rifles (we love to hunt down here).
Though gun violence is highly prevalent in the USA, I would encourage Cos to consider the areas in which their agents go traipsing around with heavy weaponry. While a man with a combat shotgun may not raise many eyes in New York, DC, or Chicago, it certainly will in small-town Maryland, Iowa, or New York State.
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 13:18:38 +0900
From: Jay and Mikiko Noyes
Though gun violence is highly prevalent in the USA, I would encourage COs to consider the areas in which their agents go traipsing around with heavy weaponry. While a man with a combat shotgun may not raise many eyes in New York, DC, or Chicago, it certainly will in small-town Maryland, Iowa, or New York State.
I would disagree in this point, though; I think people would be a lot more excited to see someone carrying a shotgun down the street in Los Angeles than they would in a small town, although if it was clearly not a hunting weapon the police would come along and check them out. They would hassle them if they seemed suspicious; if not, they would tell the gun-toting individuals in question to put the guns in a gun case to carry around.
In many mid-western cities, the only rule regarding carrying a gun is that it remain in plain sight, although the police are likely to come along a question you if you're carrying around a holstered pistol for no apparent reason. While there is almost never a law regarding have the gun on you, they would ask you to leave it at home the next time you come to town.
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 13:45:55 +0900
From: "David Farnell"
I think people would be a lot more excited to see someone carrying a shotgun down the stree in Los Angeles than they would in a small town
If some guy was carrying a shotgun down the street in LA, I think everyone around him would become VERY quiet and do their best to slip away. Then the cops would show up and, depending on his apparent ethnic group and social class, either order him down on the ground or just start shooting.
In many midwestern cities, the only rule regarding carrying a gun is that it remain in plain sight, although the police are likely to come along a question you if you're carrying around a holstered pistol for no apparent reason. While there is almost never a law regarding have the gun on you, they would ask you to leave it at home the next time you come to town.
Just before I moved to Japan, Texas was going through the big to-do about deciding whether to pass a concealed-carry law. The idea was that you could go through training, pass a test, and pay a wad of money to get a license to carry a concealed handgun. One of the main arguments in support of the law was that so many (otherwise law-abiding) people in TX already carry concealed guns illegally, so at least we can encourage them to get certified and take their dough.
I argued against the law on only one point. Why concealed? The idea there was that openly carrying weapons would scare the old ladies. Bah, I said—this is Texas. Besides, think of how the fashion industry would prosper if they had to design gunbelts, holsters, etc for lawyers, yuppies, and such. (I was only slightly kidding.) Well, the law passed, so speak nicely to folks when you visit Texas.
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 23:13:54 -0400 (EDT)
From: G.M.
I would disagree in this point, though; I think people would be a lot more excited to see someone carrying a shotgun down the street in Los Angeles than they would in a small town, although if it was clearly not a hunting weapon the police would come along and check them out. They would hassle them if they seemed suspicious; if not, they would tell the gun-toting individuals in question to put the guns in a gun case to carry around.
I have to interject a true story here to support this. I lived in Greensboro, one of the larger cities in North Carolina. Some friends and I went sport shooting one Saturday, and afterwards, I and my .22 Semi-auto rifle had to walk about a mile through a mainly business part of town. Off I went with it over my shoulder in marching position. The section of town was unoccupied, being a Saturday night, around 11pm.
I had gone only about 1/4th of a mile when TWO unmarked police cars and ONE black & white pulled up, one unmarked stopping about 10 yards ahead, the other the same distance behind. As soon as I saw it was the police, and while they were still parking, I placed the rifle on the ground, took three VERY LARGE steps away from it and raised my hands. As the first officer steps out of the car, I pointed to the rifle with my still raised hands and said, loudly "It's right there, officer."
The officers then came over and asked me about the rifle, why I had it out in the open, asked for ID, and asked to frisk me. I was very polite and answered all questions and told them exactly which pocket my wallet and the half box of ammo was in. They were friendly once they saw I was no trouble. They decided to give me a lift home so I didn't cause any disturbance if people saw me.
It certainly put a memorable cap on the day. =]
So if you have agents parading around with obvious weapons and someone might see them, it doesn't matter weather the players are in DC or backwoods, the boys in blue will show up in force, ready to handle the situation, unless the clever agents have arranged things in advance.
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 02:59:39 EDT
From: moc.loa|sodnamI#moc.loa|sodnamI
Actually, this seems to be exactly backwards from what I would have said. In most urban areas in the U.S., just carrying around a long arm openly can get you arrested. On the other hand, in many rural areas people have no objection to folks who go out "plinking" or hunting "varmints".
Being from hillbilly land West Virginia, I agree with Mr. Mackenzie. Pistols are legal to carry here as long as the gun is in the open. This does not apply in downtown areas due to separate town laws. However over a third of the people in Morgantown have concealed permits. We have a very low crime rate. Wonder why? Could it be since criminals don't know who is armed? As for long arms, rifles and shotguns would not be odd to see in the hands of someone walking the local woods. Assault weapons would be questioned. Keep in mind that this is a University town with a very educated population. In the more remote areas of the state anything could happen.
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 07:57:15 EDT
From: moc.loa|5PMyllekgM#moc.loa|5PMyllekgM
It's also common to carry a sidearm openly in a lot of the smaller towns in the South. Common enough that people might look strangely at YOU if you don't have a gun holstered on your belt. You can be arrested under the "Threat" pretense in urban areas for carrying a firearm openly, even if it never leaves the holster. Concealed weapons are an obvious no-no everywhere. Damned if you do. Damned if you don't.
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 08:18:27 -0700
From: "Gerry Mckelvey"
Uh…I'm in the US, and in a pretty rural area too, but we don't have a lot of guns…now, Harrisburg denizens aren't allowed to carry guns (concealed or otherwise, they can have them at home tho and take them out for hunting season) and they have a pretty bad crime rate (esp when you consider the low population)
While a man with a combat shotgun may not raise many eyes in New York, DC, or Chicago, it certainly will in small-town Maryland, Iowa, or New York State.
Depends on who sees you with that shotgun. some folks don't care what you shoot with, so long as it ain't on their land…cops of course DO care what you're carrying…
Being from hillbilly land West Virginia, I agree with Mr. Mackenzie. Pistols are legal to carry here as long as the gun is in the open. This does not apply in downtown areas due to seperate town laws. However over a third of the people in Morgantown have concealed permits. We have a very low crime rate. Wonder why? Could it be since criminals don't know who is armed?
tsk, tsk, that's heresy according to the gun control crowd in Washington D.C. those are the same folks who want to put warning labels on handguns….our tax dollars at work. sort of… I think the gun control argument runs som ething to the effect of "if we take everyone's guns away, then nobody will get killed anymore and all the violence will stop". wrong, folks will just start using thier fists, lead pipes, ect.
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 09:30:03 -0500 (CDT)
From: "G. Wyckoff"
Okay, I have to pass on this little bit of rural myth that I heard while I was in college. It's (mostly) appropriate to the thread.
While at college in Ithaca, New York, I was working in a lab and was around a bunch of graduate students. One of them told me a story of a friend of his (another graduate student) driving into lab in the early evening (think dusk) on the road on which I lived. There was a golf course on both sides of the road, and deer used to scamper happily across the road all the time. Dusk, of course, was their favourite scamper time. Well, this guy was driving along, and hit a deer. Not full on, but a glancing blow. He pulled off the side of the road, and the deer was there, obviously in a lot of pain. About 2 minutes later a pickup pulls off the side of the road next to him, a guy gets out. He looks at the deer, says "Shit, I left my guns (plural) at home 'cause I needed to clean them. Let's see if the next guy who come along can help, or maybe has a cell phone or something." Well, sure enough, a sports car comes whizzing down the road (I was told a Porsche). The driver sees the situation, pulls of the side of the road. A well dressed gentleman in a pin strip suit gets out, looks at the deer, tells the two gentleman to stand back, pulls out a .45, and shoots the animal, two shots right between the eyes. The deer drops to the ground, obviously quite dead and out of pain. The man puts the weapon back inside its holster, looks at the two other guys, and says "Better call the town so they can clean it up." He gets back into the car and drives away.
Now, I suspect that the story may have been embellished, but the moral is that 2 out of 3 Americans own weapons, and 1 out of 3 in rural areas are carrying at any given time. Also note that in the 4 years I was in Ithaca, there was one homicide in which a gun was used, and it was drug-related.
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 11:33:32 -0400
From: Clark Wallace
Reminds me of a story here in DC, where a man decided to register his shotguns with the city. Unfortunately, he did not consider using a gun case, and just got out of his car in front of the municipal building with two shotguns over his shoulder. Needless to say, the police showed up in a heartbeat, pointed about 40 glocks at his head and ordered him to lay down. Lucky for him he didn't panic.
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 12:00:12 -0400
From: murphy
To further characterise such areas for our list members unfamiliar with rural areas of the U.S., I was born and raised in West Virginia and have a lot of kin in Kentucky, and while my family never owned guns, a lot of people own shotguns, hunting rifles and handguns (though they rarely get carried around on the street). The crime rate surprised me when I moved to Nashville and then North Carolina; like Thomas, I'd characterize the crime rate in West Virginia as 'very low,' and crime has seemed much more prevalent since I left WV. One notable exception would be domestic violence. Where maybe West Virginians don't commit a lot of armed robberies, try serving papers on some guy to get him away from his wife and the shooting is a lot more common. "Stay out of my family's affairs" kind of thing. I guess another notable exception would be strikes…when the coal companies and the UMW don't see eye-to-eye, several times there's been shooting over it. I remember once seeing some mining company rep speaking at a news conference with an Ingram in a (visible) shoulder holster so as to dissuade the more fanatic from shooting at him.
My feeling is that given the touchiness of the U.S. public about firearm-related violence, people lugging guns around in plain sight in a city, legally or not, are looking for a run-in with the cops. If you're carrying around a shotgun or hunting rifle, then it's probably less likely people will pay attention to you if you're in a rural area, but try it with an assault rifle or a combat shotgun…I sure wouldn't want to try it, and if you're a stranger, you're sure likely to have trouble with the cops carting around any kind of weapon.
Still, if *I* were going to face the Mothman, stranger or not, I'm carrying around at least combat shotgun…
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 09:04:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: Usul
Isnt it funny? Are we the only ones who remembers that there was violence long before there were firearms?
Try telling that to the criminal (READ: congressmen/women!)
Here in New Mexico your vehicle is considered a part of your personal property, so you can legally carry a loaded firearm in your car. Some city statutes might override this…
In fact THEY're trying to pass a law making it a felony to be in possession of a firearm within 300 meters(I think) of a school. The reasoning is that there are too many 'gangers' with guns…so now they can get those bad guys, and if they seize a few guns, cars, & property in the process, so much the better…lame…
If you get pulled over in a school zone, drive on till you're out of the zone, or deny that you have a firearm (unless you *want* to be a convicted felon) Currently Law Enforcement and the Military are trying to change this law to exclude them. Ain't it great?
So for those of you in states with concealed carry laws, is it affordable? I heard Texas was charging hundreds of dollars a year for the CC permit…New Mexico is still dinking around with this legislation…I hope they pass it with a realistic price tag attached….
I also overheard a radio report that somewhere (not sure exaclty) they want to ban martial arts….
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 16:49:27 -0400
From: "Jimmie Bise, Jr."
Subject: Re: DG: Re: Yanks With Guns
So for those of you in states with concealed carry laws, is it affordable? I heard Texas was charging hundreds of dollars a year for the CC permit…New Mexico is still dinking around with this legislation…I hope they pass it with a realistic price tag attached….
Here in Maryland, when I last checked, the grand total for a permit per year was about $150. That's payable when you make the application for the permit and is non-refundable, no matter if they grant the permit or not. I should als note that there are only specific "types" of folks to which they issue permits: ex or current law enforcement or military (in general), those who have documented, legitimate threats against their lives, and those who routinely traffic in large sums of money. Interestingly enough, not only can you keep a weapon in your home without a permit, you can keep one in your place of business also, with the permission of the business owner. I'm not sure how they handle those people for whome their car is essentially their office.
In DC? No handguns allowed, at any time, for any reason. Not sure about rifles and such, though I suspect this is also true. Interesting that the Murder Capital of the World has such a restrictive handgun ban, no?
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 16:49:23 -0400
From: "Jimmie Bise, Jr." <moc.glo|rjbeimmij#moc.glo|rjbeimmij>
Yep, the law enforcement types get a mite skittish when you un-holster a gun in front of DC Police Headquarters, especially after the episode a few years back when a guy got in there and started shooting up the place!
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 16:49:18 -0400
From: "Jimmie Bise, Jr."
It's not necessarily what the law enforcement typs might do abut it. I suppose it's more what the local folks would do. Smaller town or suburban folks are a lot more sensitive to someone overtly carrying a rifle or such, because they've gotten attuned to violence, though they likely see folks with pistols more frequently. On the other hand, country folks would likely be more skittish around someone carrying a pistol instead of a "varmint gun". Again, this works for DG Investigators, who likely would end up carrying something a whole lot more potent than a 9 MM or a .22 rifle. In a large city you can pretty much disguise yourself under the cloak of "police special operations" or some such, without getting a lot of questions. Out where I live, you couldn't get away with that without drawing a whole lot of attention.
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 14:10:24 -0700
From: Phil A Posehn
Then there are places like Idaho where it was perfectly legal the last time I was there to carry sidearms in public…even in bars!
Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 17:50:40 -0700
From: Scott Cleverdon
A simple point. I've come to know many cops and other individuals in law enforcement here in Los Angeles, including someone who works in military intelligence and they all cannot imagine leaving home without a weapon. Indeed they find it rather brave of me (a Scotsman) to be able to go about my daily business and not be armed. The chap in Military Intelligence, when he's working carries a suppressed H&K sub machine gun under his passenger seat, not to mentions a second backup handgun.
There's also interesting things with regard to him as to what the police can do to him because he works for the government.
They can cuff him and arrest him but they cannot remove his weapons.
He also declares formally to any cops who stop him for whatever reason exactly who he is and what he's carrying. He also wears his MI badge like dogtags.
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 16:46:10 -0400
From: "R. Menzi"
I've been lurking around for the last little bit and I noticed that people are talking a lot about guns. Somewhere, someone mentioned that people would just kill each other with melee weapons, like knives and lead pipes.
Yes, this is true, but it's harder to kill someone with in this way. What guns have done to murder is to make it less personal, less meaningful, easier. To kill a man with a club or a knife, you have to get up close and personal and do it with your hands. With a gun, you don't have to see their insides come out. To kill quickly and efficiently with a melee weapon takes training, which usually teaches you more than how to kill, but also the discipline not to do so at a whim. Their is no social training to learn how to kill a man with a gun; point and shoot is so easy that a child could (and often does) do it.
The introduction of firearms into the world, and the subsequent mass production of them (making them available to most anyone with the money and/or connections) changed the world for the worse. But the damage has already been done; to ban firearms would take them away from people who obey the law while the business interests would still sell to the people who get guns to the black market. Murder is as mass produced as the ability to commit it. Their is no longer any glory in killing an opponent, as their was in the days of knights and samuri (sp?). Without discipline, all that is left is murder. The act has lost a lot of its meaning, and thus, it is taken on more lightly and is committed more widely. Guns have taken everything but the horror and grief out of a killing, and what is left has been multiplied many fold.
Most firearm deaths in America are spur of the moment crimes of passion, or accidents and would not have occurred if the firearm was not readily available. If man discovers his wife has had an affair and grabbed a bat and beat his wife instead of using a gun, the odds are much better for her to survive. At least 50% of murders are crimes of passion committed by people who would be one-time offenders. The presence of a gun in the situation just make them more likely to result in death. Most of these, often familial murders are sorely regretted by the murderer, who would not have committed the crime if the instrument were not at hand. (This is not because of lack of trying, only because it's harder to kill without a firearm.)
But what can you do? Guns are out and people use them maliciously against other people. In order to defend yourself in that situation, you need to be on the same level, making the legality of firearms a necessity. The possession of a firearm during such an incident also make the defenders chance of being killed by a gunshot jump by 300%, but that is the chance you take when you present yourself as a rival.