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Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 3:36:00 -0800
From: "Mark McFadden
I just received a catalog from Firequest (www.firequest.com) and some of the exotic stuff they sell made me immediately think of DG.
Glaser Safety Slugs - you know 'em, you love 'em, the legendary one-shot manstoppers. Over 200 pellets of #12 shot (in the Glaser Blue round) in a frangible jacket transfers all of the bullets energy into the target without ricochet or over-penetration (ie.; killing the innocent bystanders in the next apartment). Just name-drop "Glaser" in a gun conversation for literally hours of speculation about "penetration" and "kinetic shock" and possible alternatives for home defense against Velociraptors and the ubiquitous PCP benumbed machete-wielding psycho in a Kevlar vest. Like all of the rounds featured in the catalogue, they are sold in card mounted blister packs of six with frantic graphics. Which means that when a DG Op captures a cult's armory, the exotic rounds are easily identifiable and require no specialized knowledge of gunsmithing.
Also for handguns - tracers, two kinds of incendiary ammo and Devastators ("a special detonating tip causes gross expansion unlike anything else"). Shitfire Bubba, gimme a couple dozen a them bad boys.
Then there's the .37mm "Flare Launcher" with kit for mounting under your AR-15 or AK-47. No? Then how 'bout the .37mm "Flare Launcher" with folding stock? 21 inches when folded!
The Black Powder Derringer Pistol! No Permit Required! All steel. Sold to anyone.
Now here's the fun stuff. The special purpose shotgun rounds. Come in gaudy blister packs of three.
The "Macho Gaucho"
Two lead slugs connected by a steel wire which whirls during flight. Just the thing for beheading that annoying Highlander when he brings a sword to a gunfight. There can be only one. Blam!
The 12 Ga. "Rhodesian Jungle Round"
Hell, who cares what it is, just say it with me…Rhodesian Jungle Round. Row dee zhun jung gull rownd. Fetch me a gin'n'tonic, I'm loading Rhodesian Jungle Rounds. Aaaahhh, quinine, legacy of a life in the tropics.
Flechettes! In 12 and 410 Ga. 20 1.5" darts in the 12 Ga. shell.
Ahem. The 12 Ga. "Exploder". Here's the description:
"A stabilized, finned slug with a deep hollow core for loading combustible materials. The exploder round has curved fins in the rear of the slug for stability. Recent D.O.T. regulations require that the "Exploder" hollow cavity be shipped unloaded. This allows you to load the cavity yourself, safely with no tools required. Use our formula or yours. Complete instructions included. Cannot be shipped to California, Florida, Illinois or New York City addresses."
Hehehe. That's why we always have a PO box in Texas.
12 Ga. "Terminator-X"
"Upon impact this slug mushrooms and expands to nearly 2 inches, stopping the slug from totally penetrating your objective. This rapid expansion forces the dozens of tiny pellets to spread through your objective like a cancerous disease, opening an area at the impact point equal to a softball! The cavity created has the shock effect of 95%! That means only 5% of any living being could survive this kind of hit." Hooah. Are you engorged yet?
12 Ga. armor piercing
Can penetrate 1/4" steel plate.
12 Ga. Door Duster
For blowing out door locks, door hinges and deadbolts. A charge of compressed powdered metal, very dense, strikes the target and then turns to metal dust. If the Jehovah's Witnesses get their hands on these things, I'm outta here.
There's a round with with shot, a large lead ball attached to a length of wire with a hook. A round with shot and a 7" length of chain. A round loaded with brass nuggets. A round loaded with shot and razor sharp steel tacks.
And finally, my favorite. The 12 Ga. "Flame Thrower"
Produces an enormous wall of fire for 250+ feet. The incendiary metal compound burns at over 4000 degrees Fahrenheit. For the life of me, I can't think of a non-CoC use for these things. Home defense? Hunting? Law enforcement? Skeet?
"Yo, Ithaqua. Got something for your frosty ass."
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 23:37:50 +0000
From: larp
And finally, my favorite. The 12 Ga. "Flame Thrower" Produces an enormous wall of fire for 250+ feet. The incendiary metal compound burns at over 4000 degrees Fahrenheit. For the life of me, I can't think of a non-CoC use for these things. Home defense? Hunting?
yes, definately for hunting… now, you too, can bring down Bambi and BBQ him at the same time… :)
this looks similar to an assortment of ammo available for sale on the net… check out http://www.dragonsbreath.com/
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 12:52:16 +0900
From: "David Farnell"
Glaser Safety Slugs - you know 'em, you love 'em, the legendary one-shot manstoppers.
AAAAHHHHHH! Not Glasers again! AAAHHHH! (see extremely long guns & ammo thread in the archives/Ice Cave for explanation of my PTSD reaction—at least you didn't mention Black Talons!)
Then there's the .37mm "Flare Launcher"
Whoa, them's some tiny flares! (Wonder if it can be rigged to fire teeny-tiny grenades.) I used to see some of the other rounds in Shotgun News—looks like ammo-designing branch of Mad Scientists, Inc. is still going strong, coming up with stuff that's probably more dangerous to the shooter than the target. Almost all this ammo (except maybe the Glasers, which are still somewhat unpredictable, and the "Duster" shotgun rounds, which I've heard do work quite well for destroying locks and hinges, but are not much use in combat) should be considered experimental and on the same level with home-made rounds, made by someone whose ammo-loading skills are completely unknown to you. Most of these rounds are made by fly-by-night companies. There is no equivalent of the Food and Drug Administration (or whatever functions for that in your country) making sure ammo is "safe" and reliable—expect lots of jams, wild inaccuracy, complete failure to function, and damage to the weapon up to and including explosions that ram large pieces of sharp metal through one's brain.
Then again, that's all part of the fun. Be sure to reflect that kind of uncertainty in your games if any agents go for this kind of stuff—and they will; there's always one or two in every crowd. If you're dice-oriented, maybe make up an expanded malfunction chart with all sorts of nasty possibilities. ("Your Dragonbreath round goes off in the barrel, blowing it up and chain-firing the other eight rounds in the tube magazine—Ooooh, that's GOTTA hurt!")
Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 14:49:28 +0100
From: Davide Mana
I was duly impressed by the variety of things Mark presented us. Now, I have a question for the gun buffs out there (if any ;->)
First of all, please remember that I'm still very much in the culverin/blunderbuss league when fire weapons are concerned: weapons you loaded with nails, gravel, glass shards and lenghts of chain and still they did not blow up in your face any sooner than they would with regular ammo anyway.
Already Dave has pointed out the intrinsic inaccuracy/unreliability of these ammunitions.
Now, considering
The "Macho Gaucho"
which looks like something straight out of the Golden Age of Piracy, together with the rest of the shot&wire/shot&chain class, up to
The 12 Ga. "Flame Thrower"
my question is: how does your regular off the shelf shotgun take this kind of stuff?
Supposing they work just fine, what happens to your gun, which is supposedly still a precision tooled device with a certain range of tolerances and so on, after you sent a few lenghts of chain up its barrel, real fast and hot?
Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 09:10:52 -0800
From: Josh Shaw
my question is: how does your regular off the shelf shotgun take this kind of stuff? Supposing they work just fine, what happens to your gun, which is supposedly still a precision tooled device with a certain range of tolerances and so on, after you sent a few lenghts of chain up its barrel, real fast and hot?
In regards to the chain shot, etc., assuming they worked properly, not much. A shotgun is really just a smooth steel tube that's used to steel pellets being forced up it at a high rate of speed. The worst to be expected, everything working properly, might be some scratching on the inside of the bore leading possibly to some degradation in accuracy, assuming you used these kinds of rounds a lot.
Actually, I'd assume that the chain is held in some kind of wadding cup prior to exiting the barrel. If not, there might be a small possibility that the links might somehow tangle in the bore, causing a momentary blockage. Of course, that, by definition, does not constitute "working properly".
Not counting the flame rounds, I think that any long term problems or damage to the shotgun would be at best minor. Shotguns are simple devices are tend, if properly cared for, to remain serviceable for literally generations. Literally. If you inherited a heirloom Purdy, there's no reason (after having it inspected for damage) not to fire it with modern ammunition. Shotgun failure using these kinds of devices is much more likely to be sudden and catastrophic than some form gradual damage.
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 13:09:15 +0900
From: "David Farnell"
The 12 Ga. "Flame Thrower" is a disaster waiting to happen. These rounds have never worked safely. They were tried and failed to perform well during the Vietnam war and perhaps earlier. I would give as high as a ten percent chance of an explosive misfire to a player using such a round. Perhaps this is a bit high, but these rounds are dangerous to use. The effect would be to set off the other rounds in the gun or at least to disable the weapon.
Cool! I was right, and I was just guessing! I've had pals in Chill games back in high school use those a lot, and I always figured they'd be more dangerous and less effective than claimed.
Other exotic ammo I've actually tried:
I found that Glasers were pretty accurate in my .357m GP-100 revolver, but the range I was firing on was only about, hmm, maybe 10 yards. Hydroshocks were more accurate, and of course you can't hurt what you can't hit, so I mainly practiced with those. For a while there I was paranoid enough to keep my gun loaded with Glasers in the bedside drawer, on the theory that I was much less likely to kill a neighbor with a missed shot. (Now I live in Japan and don't worry about such things.)
There's an odd round in .38special, maybe other caliber's, that's 2 big lead balls (maybe 000 buckshot?) stacked one on top of the other in the jacket. Fired fine out of the above magnum, reasonably accurate at pistol ranges, usually left 2 big holes about maybe 2-6cm apart (varied widely).
I've also used the .38special "snake round"—a tiny shotgun round filled with birdshot, intended to be used on rattlesnakes and the like. (An actual danger in the Texas countryside.) I only used them for target practice—even at a few feet, they peppered the whole target with tiny holes. VERY short range, probably only superficial damage that might do more to enrage or cow a person than hurt him. Might blind him, though. Mixed results on actual snake use: One friend took out a rattler that was threatening her cat—very tasty! Her husband, OTOH, fired off a whole cylinder at a threatening snake and didn't seem to bother it a bit.
Note for those unfamiliar with guns: Certain revolvers can take more than one size of ammo. .357magnum revolvers can fire .357magnum ammo and .38special ammo—.357magnum is just a long .38special (the fraction-of-an-inch measuring is different because they're measured different ways, not because they are actually different diameters—they're the same). .38special revolvers, however, cannot fire .357magnum ammo—even if you could close the cylinder, the gun would probably blow up as it's not built to take the pressure.
The same is true for .44magnum and .44special. Also, I found by accident that some older .38special revolvers will fire the old .38Smith&Wesson ammo, which is quite short. Some people like to fire the lighter rounds through the heavy magnum revolvers because they tend to kick a lot less. However, they tend to be a little less accurate than firing the round made for the gun. Note that this is ONLY for revolvers—automatics will only feed the round that was made for them.
Hydroshocks have been mentioned—those are just a kind of high-quality hollowpoint, with a little post in the hollow that may or may not promote expansion. I just used them because they were the most accurate thing in my gun. A previous revolver I owned liked silvertips -another slightly exotic hollowpoint -so I used those. It's an odd thing - some brands of ammo are more accurate than others in specific guns. Players who are into details may appreciate this info - it could also lead to clues.
All this is just for adding realism to one's DG campaign, and is not intended to spark a 2-month, intensely heated thread on the merits of various kinds of ammo.
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 22:29:36 +0900 (JST)
From: Jay and Mikiko
it inspected for damage) not to fire it with modern ammunition. Shotgun failure using these kinds of devices is much more likely to be sudden and catastrophic than some form gradual damage.
I like how you just slipped that in there at the end. "Suddenly catastrophic" has done much to turn the tables in a given role-playing scenario, usually just after someone says something like "Look, all I have to do is not roll '00'. ohshit."
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 22:34:29 +0900 (JST)
From:Jay and Mikiko
claim that you used the wrong amount of force even when you used it in self defense or defense of a client who is under attack. For the same reason, the company I worked for after leaving Government work required us to use double action weapons. Single actions weapons must be cocked (the hammer pulled back) in order to fire and this was ruled as showing intent to kill. Both
At times like these, I grieve for the increasing stupidity of my own country. At times I don't know which would be worse, Great Old Ones or lawyers. I take that back, I know which would be worse: lawyers. Great Old Ones don't bill you for driving you insane.
Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 13:58:31 +0000
From: Phil Ward
At times like these, I grieve for the increasing stupidity of my own country. At times I don't know which would be worse, Great Old Ones or lawyers. I take that back, I know which would be worse: lawyers. Great Old Ones don't bill you for driving you insane.
I have to agree.
Although I had thought that they had got away with that for Single-Action Only Weapons but that single or double-action weapons were generally frowned upon by the courts because you don't _have_ to thumb the hammer back/rack the slide, etc.
However, enough of this bandwidth-wasting legal-firearms talk, if I wanted that I'd go to http://www.comtac.com (or similar) and join the tactics list again.
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 09:39:48 -0500
From: "Elliot A. Rushing"
At times like these, I grieve for the increasing stupidity of my own country. At times I don't know which would be worse, Great Old Ones or lawyers. I take that back, I know which would be worse: lawyers. Great Old Ones don't bill you for driving you insane.
[Delurking for a moment]
Hey. Hey!
While there may be lawyers hovering in the scenario outlined above, I suspect that a policy of "double action only" was ultimately reached by a lay person (possibly after mentioning the issue in a casual, offhand way to his drinking buddy/golf partner/uncle's lawyer).
Legally, the mechanical action of a weapon has nothing to do with murderous intent to kill, period. If the case is truly one of self defense, it doesn't matter anyway. Most cases in which the mechanical action of the weapon was used to argue an implied intent (though it's a better argument for simple recklessness) were cases where the action was *modified* to make the weapon more deadly (the apocryphal "hair-trigger"). In terms of trial tactics, this is the type of argument that's "thrown in for effect", not relied upon as the crux of your case.
Many private security companies and law enforcement agencies went to DAO weapons in the late 1980s-early 1990s, primarily for concerns of safety — carrying a single action "cocked-and-locked" (hammer cocked, bullet in chamber, weapon on safety), while theoretically very safe, in practical terms resulted in several (sometimes deadly) accidents when done as a *policy* for daily carry by less than very highly familiarized personnel (by this phrase I mean folks who don't constantly (say, weekly) practice shooting a couple hundred rounds with their sidearm, field-stripping it, cleaning it, remaining familiar with the safety features/peculiarities of the weapon, and so forth — outside of the firearm-hobbyist crowd, most career *cops* simply don't maintain this level of familiarity over the long haul). In the end, such decisions were generally made for reasons of liability — *insurance* liability (e.g., worker's comp claims), not legal liability.
In practice, the DAO vs. single-action argument is a tempest in a teapot, good only for selling gun magazines. Both types of firearm are, for all practical purposes, equally effective at making people very dead. Any good lawyer would know that. When it comes to cases, lawyers will always argue theories the facts support. That's their job.
Whenever I hear talk of what sounds like a pretty boneheaded policy espoused on "legal" grounds, I always look for a lay middle-management type who was too cheap to ask a real lawyer for advice. This type of "fiscally-conservative, litigation-averse" manager unwittingly creates more profitable work for the legal profession than 100 car wrecks. ;)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 20:20:35 -0500 (EST)
From: John Petherick
I've also used the .38special "snake round"—a tiny shotgun round filled with birdshot, intended to be used on rattlesnakes and the like. (An actual danger in the Texas countryside.) I only used them for target practice—even at a few feet, they peppered the whole target with tiny holes. VERY short range, probably only superficial damage that might do more to enrage or cow a person than hurt him. Might blind him, though. Mixed results on actual snake use: One friend took out a rattler that was threatening her cat—very tasty! Her husband, OTOH, fired off a whole cylinder at a threatening snake and didn't seem to bother it a bit.
The .22 caliber version of these are quite handy for mouse control. The shot shell is relatively low-powered, so the shot will not penetrate or damage wood (floors or roofs). Even better than a gallery short, in this regard. I personally subscribe to the theory that the sight of one of their compatriots being blown apart usually persuades the remaining mice to vacate.
If you're a handloader, you can pack a shotgun shell with just about anything. This could be done with a muzzle-loader, too. One of the favourite loads for driving away nuisance animals (or humans) is rock salt, although wheat is a close second. Almost guaranteed to be non-lethal but painful.
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 21:55:00 -0800
From: "Mark McFadden
Whenever I hear talk of what sounds like a pretty boneheaded policy espoused on "legal" grounds, I always look for a lay middle-management type who was too cheap to ask a real lawyer for advice. This type of "fiscally-conservative, litigation-averse" manager unwittingly creates more profitable work for the legal profession than 100 car wrecks. ;)
Elliot! My man! I was hoping this thread would get you out and about.
Double/single action digressions aside, the info I wanted to impart is that these exotic rounds are easy to get your hands on. You don't need a contact in the National Guard armory or Underworld, the prices aren't prohibitive and they are plainly labeled. This is nearly common knowledge in the US, but I thought our members from Elsewhere could use the info.
P.S. In the 70's, the California Highway Patrol (at least) couldn't carry automatics, and the LAPD was restricted to .38s. A larger calibre was considered intent to kill rather than wound (according to Joseph Wambaugh). IIRC, the ubiquitous PCP enraged juggernaut was the reason for upping the ante (sort of like the legendary fanatical machete-wielding Moros initiated adding a .45 sidearm to the standard Springfield rifle issued to the infantry).
There is a DG lesson here: the presence of PCP excused anything.
There was a bit of a scandal (late 70's) in Orange County (the Disneyland part of the LA megacity) when a naked unarmed man was being obstreperous on his front yard. A policeman at the scene took him down with 13 9mm slugs to the torso. That's a full clip and one in the pipe