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Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 14:37:09 -0400
From: "gerald mckelvey"
Ok, I'm confused. It seems that some of the big, baddies in the Mythos represent 'primal forces' of the universe. i.e. Azatoth is into nuclear forces, Shub-Niggurath into wierd animal/plant life, ect ect. Even Cthuluthu is kinda into the sea and what oozes around down there. So where does the King In Yellow fit into all of this? Does Hastur represent a particular idea? I also seem to remember reading somewhere about the lligor serving Hastur in some capacity but I might be wrong about that.
Just some minor confusion, but I'd appreciate an answer.
Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 14:46:48 EDT
From: ScottSaylo
So where does the King In Yellow fit into all of this? Does Hastur represent a particular idea? I also seem to remember reading somewhere about the lligor serving Hastur in some capacity but I might be wrong about that. Just some minor confusion, but I'd appreciate an answer.
Hastur is associated with the air for some reason or other. Nothing really substantiates this after all he's pretty well isolated on Far Carcosa, writing plays and showing himself only in his avatar the King in Yellow
Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 21:31:48 +0200
From: Davide Mana
Ok, I'm confused.
It always begins that way….
It seems that some of the big, baddies in the Mythos represent 'primal forces' of the universe. i.e. Azatoth is into nuclear forces, Shub-Niggurath into wierd animal/plant life, ect ect. Even Cthuluthu is kinda into the sea and what oozes around down there. So where does the King In Yellow fit into all of this?
Maybe he does not fit at all.
Maybe the primal forces connection is not a given.
Maybe it's not even right.
On the other hand, should I really attach a "primal force" to the King, I'd play him (?) as an incarnation of human folly [ok, you purists out there, so maybe that's not a registered "primal force", but bear with me]
All points in that direction:
. the book that gets you crazy - if I'm not mistaken, Chambers creation is the first entry in the cathegory by modern writers; even the big N. comes later.
. the colour - yellow is notoriously the colour of madness in Europe ("yellow, the colour of gold, lemons and madness", I remember from some early school reading)
. the look - a king in rags, either way it's a mandman. But this is just an opinion.
Does Hastur represent a particular idea?
He has some meaning (fire?) in the Derlethian GOO/Element thing, but that's apocryphal.
Now, I've been toying with a weird little idea, in connection with my old Alice story (that I'm gonna finish one of these days, no really). Probably under the influence of just too many readings of the late Rog Zelazny's "Lord of Light" (one of my all time favourites), I started shaking the avatara idea just to see if it could make some new sound or something.
So, what if the King in Yellow is not an avatara of Hastur proper, but a mask, a role, that different Mythos deities can use at will?
And maybe not the only one….?
["Hey, Haz, do you mind if I'm the King in Yellow for a while this aeon?"
"No problemo, kid - I'm taking the Thing in the Yellow Mask for a while anyway. Just leave the rags to the cleaner afterwards, ok?"]
This angle of course makes some sense in the story I'm writing (….), and of course I like it, but who knows, it could also explain why the Hastur/KiY connection is so hazy and ill defined.
I also seem to remember reading somewhere about the lligor serving Hastur in some capacity but I might be wrong about that.
Sorry, but here I can't help you. Much as I like the lloigor, they are again rather hazy and ill-defined (do I need mor Powder of Ibn-Ghazi?)
Just some minor confusion, but I'd appreciate an answer.
Confusion is always welcome.
Keep up the good work.
Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 16:47:36 EDT
From: Mark McFadden
. the colour - yellow is notoriously the colour of madness in Europe ("yellow, the colour of gold, lemons and madness", I remember from some early school reading)
Yellow, the color of madmen and geniuses.
Note: in Ken Russell's movie adaption of Tommy, some of the songs are color coded
Uncle Ernie: blue
The Acid Queen: red
Cousin Kevin: yellow
Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 16:43:11 -0500
From: "Ricardo J. Méndez"
Does Hastur represent a particular idea?
He has some meaning (fire?) in the Derlethian GOO/Element thing, but that's apocryphal.
I believe that Cthuga is fire, but as Davide points out do feel free to ignore that elemental connections. Why? (a) It's Derleth stuff (b) It would bind the GOOs - or at least some of them - to elements that may not be even relevant where they come from (do remember that even the Mi-Go mine minerals that are in other planes).
Oh, I believe that Shub-Niggurath is more like fertility than nature.
Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 14:07:59 +0900
From: "David Farnell"
From: Ricardo J. Méndez:
I believe that Cthuga is fire, but as Davide points out do feel free to ignore that elemental connections. Why? (a) It's Derleth stuff (b) It would bind the GOOs - or at least some of them - to elements that may not be even relevant where they come from (do remember that even the Mi-Go mine minerals that are in other planes).
Excellent point—the commonly cited 4 elements become irrelevant when you consider other dimensions, etc. Heck, it was always 5 elements in Japan (earth, fire, water, wood, metal—and some add void to make 6), anyway, and 3 in American soul music ;-).
Davide was talking about avatars, so here's something I've been playing with: They're ALL avatars. Azathoth, Nyarlathotep, Yog-Sothoth, and (perhaps) Shub-Niggurath and Hastur are all avatars of something much greater (but probably with no intelligence as we can imagine it). I say "perhaps" for Shubby and Hastur because they may be a level down—avatars of Azathoth, or something. The King in Yellow and all those manifestations of the Toe-Tapper we meet are further avatars. As I said once before about the KiY, he may very well be spawned unconsciously by Hastur in response to his worshippers' need, or even just the particular psychic rhythms of decadence.
He has a human-like intelligence because he is, in a way, our child as well as our master. That's why he cares enough to destroy us. Same for the various Toe-Tappers. Everybody's always wondering why the heck Nyarlathotep is so darned interested in us, why he loves screwing with us so much. Well, he doesn't. He doesn't know we exist. But our minds summon his avatars, and THEY are interested in us. We help to shape them (well, maybe only the more humanoid ones—the others could be here for a different reason), and that includes defining their minds. But never completely. A bunch of Satanists want to meet the Devil? They get the Black Man from the Margaret Murray books—but he also knows he's Nyarlathotep, not really the Devil, and the dichotomy amuses him greatly. Heck, he might stick around for millennia before returning to the true Nyarlathotep parent-form in the 8th dimension.
Note that calling/creating these avatars is not necessarily a willing act. You don't need to summon them through ceremony—they may just appear when the parent-form gets hit by certain kinds of ideas from humans.
Now, Cthulhu and all the aliens and such, I think, are not avatars, although they may be trying to ascend to higher levels of power and join with their "gods"—the parent-forms. Cthulhu is so powerful because he's gotten pretty far along in this. Alzis is doing a good job, too.
Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 13:56:16 BST
From: "Chris Williams"
As I said once before about the KiY, he may very well be spawned unconsciously by Hastur in response to his worshippers' need, or even just the particular psychic rhythms of decadence.
Anyone out there remember the Chaos God of Pleasure, Slannesh, from Games Workshop? He was created by the degeneracy of the Eldar (space elves). They spent so much time partying and being decadent that their psychic energy created Slannesh out of nowhere. He then proceeded to trash their Empire and corrupt their souls to darkness.
Which was nice.
Maybe the reason why we're doomed to the End Times is because we created the King in Yellow/Hastur by our actions. I can fit "Hastur as God of Decadence" into my Mythos without too much trouble, and it gives a logical reason for humanity to be doomed. After all, what could be a greater crime than causing a GOO to be?
Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 09:24:21 PDT
From: "Adam Marler"
This also could fit in with the "Evil Beauty" thread. Slannesh was said to be so beautiful yet utterly disgusting at the same time that the viewer would be driven insane by his own guilt at lusting after some yucky creature from beyond space and time.
Editor's Note: the evil/beauty discussion is attached to another document
Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 17:01:15 -0400
From: BRUCE BALLON
Don't forget Nyarlathotep's avatar of the Bloated Woman… with ehr fan up, she is supposed to look like a mega-cutie….and giving wild pleasures…oops the fan dropped…that will be -87 SAN
Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 22:26:12 -0400
From: "gerald mckelvey"
You know, this whole 'evil beauty' thing reminds me of sandra burnheart for some reason…I fear it, yet am oddly attracted to it….thanks for the nightmares guys!!!!!
Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 17:07:50 BST
From: "Chris Williams"
And BRUCE BALLON <gro.fra|NOLLABB#gro.fra|NOLLABB> wrote:
Don't forget Nyarlathotep's avatar of the Bloated Woman… with ehr fan up, she is supposed to look like a mega-cutie….
Well, what is beauty anyway? Not physical perfection: studies have shown that a certain asymmetry in a face is needed for it to be considered beautiful. And remember, it's not the slime and tentacles that drive you mad, it's the non-Euclidean angles.
What if one of Gnarly's forms was just inhumanly beautiful? Normal in every respect, with no imperfections, a perfect 10. Isn't there something eerie about the truly beautiful? Something about the shape of the face or the cast of the features that sets them apart? Something that makes people desire them. Something that can drive men (and women) to commit foul deeds…
Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 17:56:46 EDT
From: Dave K
What if one of Gnarly's forms was just inhumanly beautiful? Normal in every respect, with no imperfections, a perfect 10. Isn't there something eerie about the truly beautiful? Something about the shape of the face or the cast of the features that sets them apart? Something that makes people desire them. Something that can drive men (and women) to commit foul deeds…
I agree. Also, back to the concept of beauty in the eye of the beholder, any of the GOO/OGs could be "beautiful" to the right people in the right context. Someone traveling to the center of the universe to Azathoth's throne might not be taken in by the horribleness if the entity. Instead, they may marvel at primal chaos continually writhing and forming, accompanied by haunting music (the way you always see astronauts staring at space in the movies). Cthulhu, his spawn or the Deep Ones could be beautiful to a marine biologist, as perfect examples of evolution (I was thinking of Richard Dreyfuss' character in Jaws). In Operation Looking Glass by Blair Reynolds, we see a "beautiful" manifestation of a GOO/OG (Shub-Niggurath, I believe IIRC), the same in Where Yidrha Walks. Shub-Niggurath could have all sorts of beautiful manifestations as it is tied to fertility (Growth as well as decay-though we tend to focus on the decay bit). Nyarly, in his more human forms like the Black Man, probably carries some sort of unearthly quality that manifests as beauty to the human eye (all the better to corrupt you with). The list could go on but that's enough for now.