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Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 01:00:05 +0100
From: "Florian R. Hanke"
Just came back from seeing "The salt-men from Tibet". At the beginning you see a wide shot of a hilly region of Tibet and you hear a female voice from the off, singing: "Don't you know where you are? / You are standing on the Kingdom of Leng (pronouced in between Leng and Ling). Can you see it's turquoise towers? [etc.]" (I don't think it's itended that there's a connection between the images and the song). The singer then goes on singing about dog-ghosts, 80 demon warriors (all chasing humans) and such things (can't remember very well).
So, does "Leng" originate from buddhism?
(If there's an explanation in the Enc. Cthuliana, tell me, I just don't have it handy right now.)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 18:28:33 -0600 (CST)
From: Tenebrous Technologies
So, does "Leng" originate from buddhism? (If there's an explanation in the Enc. Cthuliana, tell me, I just don't have it handy right now.)
I could be way off base but could it be Leung? And isn't there something in Chinese about Leung=Dragon, mountains are sleeping dragons,asian geomancy,etc? I could be making some jumps of assumption there, I'm not much of an asia-phile, maybe one of the ones on the list could explain what I am getting at a little better.
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 20:05:24 -0500 (EST)
From: "Andrew D. Gable"
So, does "Leng" originate from buddhism? (If there's an explanation in the Enc. Cthuliana, tell me, I just don't have it handy right now.)
I don't believe it's in E.C. (unless it's in 2nd Ed., which I sadly have yet to get), but there *is* the folktale we've talked about here in the past about King Gesar (?) of Ling. Kind of a Tibetan King Arthur…once and future and all that.
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 13:19:45 +0100
From: "Florian R. Hanke"
I don't believe it's in E.C. (unless it's in 2nd Ed., which I sadly have yet to get), but there *is* the folktale we've talked about here in the past
Oh, I missed that - does anyone know where this thread is to be found?
about King Gesar (?)
Ah, exactly - Gesar was the name (or Gehsar)
of Ling. Kind of a Tibetan King Arthur…once and future and all that.
So there's no connection between this Ling and the Leng we know?
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 14:50:30 +0100
From: Davide Mana
Trying to pinpoint the fabled Land of Leng, Florian wrote
So, does "Leng" originate from buddhism?
Not that I know of - and a quick run through my buddhist reference does not gve any further hint.
Part of the problem might come from the fact that there are a variety of ways to write Chinese words in western characters, and not all authors follow the same standard.
I'll pick my would-be-Orientalist brother's brains as soon as he comes back from the University for more details.
(If there's an explanation in the Enc. Cthuliana, tell me, I just don't have it handy right now.)
The E.C. 2nd ed. makes reference to Ling and the related folklore as Andrew Gable wrote.
GURPS Places of Mystery gives us just a meagre sidebar about Shanbhala and a quick search through the Tibetan/Himalayan reference at hand - geography and history, not folklore - again drew a blank.
The only thing I found is an actual place called Leh, in the Karakorams, along the course of the Indus River. Of course it has nothing to do with the Lovecraftian place/region, but it comes with a bit of a mistery attached, involving
. two Jesuit explorers
. a travel through mysterious lands
. a long lost manuscript
[and 120 years later a Brit took the credit]
I'll look deeper into it and post something to the list ASAP, as it's just the kind of St. Jerome fodder I might be looking for.
Something else also surfaced.
The two basic references about mysterious doings in the Himalayas are Alexandra David Neal and Nicolaij Roerich. Both characters visited and explored extensively the Himalayas in the 20s and 30s, and both looked for a fabled city/region - without much success, I gather. If the latter's name rings a bell, no wonder - Roerich's paintings are mentioned repeatedly in "At the Mountains of Madness", by our common friend from Providence.
[there's a Roerich museum online for those that would like to take a peek at the stuff - http://www.roerich.org ]
Interestingly enough (maybe), A. David Neal describes 2 mystical practices, "lung-gom" (a form of spirit possession) and "tulpas" creation, that are identical, in terms of ritual and effect, to well known "loas"-related Voodoo practices.
Just some occult bits for those interested.
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 10:29:05 +0900
From: "David Farnell"
Here's a page with info about Gesar and Ling—well, a little anyway.
http://www.uwm.edu/~rkornman/gesar2.test.html
Also, I'm reading a book right now, _Shambhala: The Sacred Path of the Warrior_, by Cho:gyan Trungpa. Here's an interesting quote from chapter one:
"Other legends say that the kingdom of Shambhala disappeared from the earth many centuries ago. At a certain point, the entire society had become enlightened, and the kingdom vanished into another more celestial realm. According to these stories, the Rigden kings of Shambhala continue to watch over human affairs, and will one day return to earth to save humanity from destruction. many Tibetans believe that the great Tibetan warrior king Gesar of Ling was inspired and guided by the Rigdens and the Shambhala wisdom. This reflects the belief in the celestial existence of the kingdom. Gesar is thought not to have travelled to Shambhala, so his link with the kingdom is a spiritual one. He lived in approximately the 11th century and ruled the provincial kingdom of Ling, which is located in the province of Kham, East Tibet. Following Gesar's reign, stories about his accomplishments as a warrior and ruler sprang up throughout Tibet, eventually becoming the greatest epic of Tibetan literature. Some legends say that Gesar will reappear from Shambhala, leading an army to conquer the forces of darkness in the world." (pp 26-27)
Make of it what you will. I see several possibilities. Here's one I like: Shambhala (aka Shangri-la) was real, and the citizens became so enlightened that they were able to flee the influence of the GOO by moving their city to another dimension. Alternately, they are a Dreamlands city, sent through a gigantic Gate of Oneirology. In any case, they could be yet another anti-GOO conspiracy, meddling in the affairs of the world and manipulating people to find things to fight the GOO, somewhat like the Order of St. Jerome.
Then again, Shambhala might just be another name for Carcosa, and Gesar a great hero of the BoYS. (Once again, not trying to be offensive to anyone's religious beliefs—just playing with wild conspiracy theories.)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 21:42:41 -0600 (CST)
From: Tenebrous Technologies
I gots to say, I thought I had an interesting bit about Leng=Loon, i.e. Dragon…yadda….Are Ten Tech musings on the kill list of evereyone? I think Leng is the play ground of the Cthulhu cult….. but that's just me. At any rate I just wanted to put out the fact that TenTech assertions seemed a bit ignored.
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 23:23:56 -0500
From: Steven Kaye
I gots to say, I thought I had an interesting bit about Leng=Loon, i.e. Dragon…yadda….Are Ten Tech musings on the kill list of evereyone? I think Leng is the play ground of the Cthulhu cult….. but that's just me. At any rate I just wanted to put out the fact that TenTech assertions seemed a bit ignored.
Hrm. Supposedly, in Tibetan lung can mean both "spirit" and "wind." Combine this with the Chinese lung, dragon, and some interesting possibilities seem to crop up - especially since at least one Derleth tale it's hinted that Ithaqua comes from Leng ("The Thing That Walked on the Wind" - the relevant ranting goes "…and back to Leng, lost Leng, hidden Leng, whence sprung Wind-Walker..and others…"), and in another tale Lloigor of "Lair of the Star-Spawn" fame somehow manages to suck a victim right out of his clothes and through the roof.
A connection between Lloigor (whom I suppose one could think of as dragon-like) and Ithaqua was posited in one of Lin Carter's pieces, I think. Perhaps Chinese legends of dragons as bringing rain, etc. are based on distorted legends of the Plateau of Sung? Still not sure how you'd work Cthulhu into the mix, but it's worth a shot.
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 23:15:05 -0600 (CST)
From: Tenebrous Technologies
Hrm. Supposedly, in Tibetan lung can mean both "spirit" and "wind." Combine this with the Chinese lung, dragon, and some interesting possibilities seem to crop up - especially since at least one Derleth tale it's hinted that Ithaqua comes from Leng ("The Thing That Walked on the Wind" - the relevant ranting goes "…
Thanks for letting us know we were still on deck.
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 08:54:59 +0100
From: Heiko Aulbach
"Other legends say that the kingdom of Shambhala disappeared from the earth many centuries ago. At a certain point, the entire society had become enlightened, and the kingdom vanished into another more celestial realm.
Like the glooming people in The Crawling Chaos?
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 14:35:40 +0100
From: Davide Mana
"…and back to Leng, lost Leng, hidden Leng, whence sprung Wind-Walker..and others…"
Ah, Chinese, what a language.
Imagine that in Chinese (according to te Concise Dictionary published by Oxford) "Leng" means cold, deserted, out of the way, lost or misplaced and strange.
Quite a coincidence, eh?
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 15:01:12 -0500
From: Steven Kaye
Matt Cowger's comments about Leng as the headquarters of the Cthulhu cult inspired me to look up some of Derleth's writings. Here's an interesting quote from "The Sandwin Compact":
"I had learned enough to be convinced of my uncle's hideous compact: the pledge of body and soul to serve the spawn of Cthulhu and Lloigor among the Tcho-Tcho people in remote Tibet…"
Several items of interest here -
- What is meant by "the spawn of Cthulhu"? The star-spawn introduced by Derleth in "The Passing of Eric Holm" and "Something From Out There"? Deep Ones? Deformed humans as in Lumley's "The Fairground Horror"?
- Should that section be read as referring to Cthulhu's spawn AND the spawn of Lloigor (and if so, are everyone's favorite life-force sucking energy vortices said spawn?), or to the spawn of Cthulhu and the deity Lloigor. Nothing pisses off Mythos scholars like unclear antecedents.
- Did the Cthulhu cult get passed from Leng to the "deathless Chinamen" of "Call of Cthulhu," or vice-versa?
I'm also wondering a lot more about Hastur now, between Derleth and Mark's comments. He shares worshippers with the other Great Old Ones ("The Sandwin Compact" has a character receive the R'lyeh Text from a priest in Tibet, which details the unspeakable promise). If we identify Hastur with the King in Yellow (and that's by no means certain), he even targets the same people that Cthulhu does when Cthulhu sends his dreams out - artists and other sensitive people. His appearance is similar to Cthulhu's - vaguely octopoid. In short, Hastur's looking a lot like a second-rate Cthulhu - which may explain their rivalry.
Just what IS Hastur's role in the Mythos scheme of things?
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 22:46:20 +0100
From: Davide Mana
I've been going through various folklore/history tomes this week-end, and it's time to show some of the results.
The following will probably go up on the St. Jerome pages - in a new "Operations" chapter - in the next few days (time permitting and all that).
While I'm at it, I'll post the stuff here as it has some tangential Leng connection.
Tcho-Tchos, Lloigor and Snake People, Ghouls and what else do also rear their ugly little heads - or maybe not, depending on your point of view.
Comments are, of course, welcome.
Note that these are actual historical facts, followed by a Mythos-free Hindu folklore note.
Enjoy.
Himalayan Operations
Sutlej Area
Part the First
Year of Our Lord 1625
In 1625, Portugues missionary Antonio de Andrade (a Jesuit) penetrated the Sutlej region and reached the royal town of Tsaparang. The local monarch allowed the man to found a mission - as the region had in the past benefitted from the actions of the Buddhist monks and was therefore more than open to religious preaching.
A document written by lama Govinda summarizes the following events, starting with a copy of the letter that the king sent to the Jesuit de Andrade.
The letter includes a pasage in which teh Jesuit is nominated First lama to the King in order to teach "tscho:-dharma" to the people.
means "The Law of Tscho" or "The Holy Law, depending on the translation - I guess you'll appreciate the irony
The actions of de andrade are described as the epitome of violence and intolerance - the buddhist monks resident in Tsaparang espected philosophical discussion and faced destruction and Inquisition-style pursuit of divergent opinions and practices.
Strangely enough the King did not interfere, and instead supported with increasing enthusiasm the de Andrade venture.
The Jesuit de Andrade returned to Goa in 1630, and there died by poison a few months later.
Tsaparang, thrown in a sate of civil war after his departure, was later (around 1650) conquered and razed by the troops of the nearby King of Ladakh, and disappeared from the maps.
As an appendix, a group of Jesuits led by father marques, former secretary and companion to de Andrade, tried to reach Tsaparang soon after the civil war began - they were attacked and captured by Tibetan warriors on the Mana Pass and were never seen again.
Part the Second
Year of Our Lord 1714
In 1714 another Jesuit, 28-years old Ippolito Desideri (an Italian) was granted by the Pope the right to try and revive the Christian mission in the Sutlej area.
After some diplomatical engeneering in the Mogul court (and thanks to the persuasion powers of portuguese…. diplomat, Dona Juliana, a close friend of the emperor), Desideri penetrated the Sutlej region, in the company of another Jesuit, the Swiss-born Emanoel Freyre and a Mogul army escort. Desideri and Freyre never built any mission, nor did they try to bring back Christianity to the region - they did reach the remains of Tsaparang and spent some time there [cleanup team?], and also reached the fabled city of Leh. They further investigated the courses of the rivers in the region [see the note below].
Desideri was not above using some highly un-priestly techniques when it came to gather intelligence or get help - deserted by the Mogul guard, he apparently seduced a local princess to get a new escort through the bandit-infested passes.
Finally, in 1716, Desideri reached Lhasa and spent five years at the court of the Sixth Dalai Lama.
Returning to Rome, Desideri compiled a ful report of his travels.
The manuscript disappeared soon after the man's death in 1733, to resurface only in 1875, in Pistoia (Northern Italy), and was published only 30 years later.
[because of these, the British "independent traveller" Moorcroft (actually a Great Game spy) is often indicated as the first Westerner to reach the city of Leh, which he did in the first half of the 1800s]
Many of the geographical notes by Desideri have so far caused much debate amongst geographers - i.e., Desideri charted a confluence between Yarlung Tsangpo and Brahmaputra that does not occurr in that point _today_ (it did a few centuries before Desideri was there, though).
Note:
The Sutlej river runs its course from west to east through the Himalayas, according to official sources originating from the Raksas Lake, or Lake of the Demons.
Raksas comes from the Hindu "Raksashas", the "unholy family" of demons of India.
Leader of the raksashas is "Ravana", a ten headed, twenty-armed horror whose body is covered in scar tissue and open cuts (after his battles with the gods).
Raksashas are waging an eternal war against the Indu gods, with the ultimate goal of (you guessed it) world domination and an abundant celebration dinner on humans, possibly raw.
They are attended/worshipped by a host of lesser creatures including…
. Pishacas - deformed, goblin-like beings that live in graveyards; they practice vampirism and are spreaders of leprosy.
. Bhutas - possibly spirits of the dead, they are invisible but can animate corpses
. Grahas - another cemetery-dwelling group, they can enter the body of a man and plague him with various deseases.
And this is almost it.
As we are talking Himalayan folklore, also remember that in the region somewhere is long lost underground city of Bhogavati, inhabited by the Nagas - serpent spirits that are "half serpent and half men". Snake people or lloigor? I propend for the former - as they are described as not all-out hostile to humans (but bite back if attacked). Certain is that demon Naga-Sanniya, the Snake God, is the cause of all snake-themed nightmares in the world - he sends them out personally each night.
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 17:28:24 -0500
From: Graeme Price
Tcho-Tchos, Lloigor and Snake People, Ghouls and what else do also rear their ugly little heads - or maybe not, depending on your point of view. Comments are, of course, welcome.
Damn! I was just about to head home when I saw the word Tcho-Tcho and it brought a paper I was reading this week to mind. For those f you who remember the Tcho-Tcho and Neandertal discussion a month or so back, this may be of interest:
Lindahl, T. (1997) Facts and artifacts of ancient DNA. Cell 90, 1-3.
Which is the editorial accompanying the article by
Krings, M., Stone, A., Schmitz, R.W., Krainitzki, H., Stoneking, M. and Pa:a:bo, S. (1997) Neandertal DNA sequences and the origin of modern humans. Cell 90, 19-30.
The basic info is that a research group in Munich was able to extract mitochondrial DNA from Neandertal bone tissue and sequence it. They found that DNA from Neandertal mitochondria is sufficiently different from human mitochondrial DNA species to indicate that humans didn't descend from Neandertals. Of course, there is more to it than that… but it's a little complex. Jurassic Park, it ain't.
Anyway, as I said, it's off topic but might be interesting for someone out there.
Now I'm definitely off home!
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 17:50:48 -0500 (EST)
From: "Andrew D. Gable"
They are attended/worshipped by a host of lesser creatures including…
. Pishacas - deformed, goblin-like beings that live in graveyards; they practice vampirism and are spreaders of leprosy.
. Bhutas - possibly spirits of the dead, they are invisible but can animate corpses
. Grahas - another cemetery-dwelling group, they can enter the body of a man and plague him with various deseases.
Hindu legends tell that if one encounters a Rakshasa (which can always be recognized, or so it's said, by backwards-turned feet and hands), all one must do is lay on the ground and say "Uncle," and it'll leave you alone.
I've also heard that one of these vampire-types (Bhuta, I believe) could inspire the "speaking in tongues" phenomena. And I believe that either the Bhuta or Pisacha had no mouth.
And, while on the subject of Indian vampires (they sure had a lot…) there was also the Vetala. Interesting. A gigantic bat-type creature, which sometimes appeared as a man (first reference I've found to the bat/vampire connection…weird, since there's no vampire bats in India). Had the backwards feet and hands of the Rakshasa.
Maybe a byakhee?
As we are talking Himalayan folklore, also remember that in the region somewhere is long lost underground city of Bhogavati, inhabited by the Nagas - serpent spirits that are "half serpent and half men". Snake people or lloigor? I propend for the former - as they are described as not all-out hostile to humans (but bite back if attacked).
The Naga also features prominently in the lore of India proper, where in fact various royal bloodlines claimed descent from Naga. And the underground city in which they dwell is called Patala (can you want a name more Mythos than that?) and is sometimes even located under the sea.
Certain is that demon Naga-Sanniya, the Snake God, is the cause of all snake-themed nightmares in the world - he sends them out personally each night.
Otherwise known as Nagadeva, or Nagaraja. Undoubtedly a mask of Yig.
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 04:41:46 +0100 (CET)
From: Delta Green
Just what IS Hastur's role in the Mythos scheme of things?
Hastur is the Half-Brother of Cthulhu and his worst enemy..if not by other reasons , by market laws….they are competitors for the same market
In the Derleth's vision of the Mythos , Hastur lives in a far star , and is not interested on Earth by itself but as the jail of his foe , Cthulhu. In the tales that Cthulhu & Hastur are mentioned , Hastur aid the humans in fligth Cthulhu (at the cost of some SAN points , of course) , sending winged messengers to transport them.
Where do you see an octopoid depictation of Hastur? He has no known cultist among humans , almost none that has been related to me in HPL or Derleth tales….
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 11:59:06 -0500
From: Steven Kaye
Hastur is the Half-Brother of Cthulhu and his worst enemy..if not by other reasons , by market laws….they are competitors for the same market
Well, I knew he's Cthulhu's half-brother and hates his guts. The competitors for the same market bothers me, though - it gives humans too much importance. That's why I was asking for alternative suggestions. As it is, the King in Yellow ain't too far off from teaching men new ways to shout and revel and kill.
In the Derleth's vision of the Mythos , Hastur lives in a far star , and is not interested on Earth by itself but as the jail of his foe , Cthulhu.
Sure. Chaosium convention connects Hastur to the King in Yellow through that quote in "The Whisperer in Darkness" about the supposed cult of evil men that seek to hurt the Mi-Go and are connected with "Hastur and the Yellow Sign." I'd have to re-check THE HASTUR CYCLE, but I don't think that Hastur is explicitly named as the King in Yellow in fiction. And while we're discussing Derleth's fiction, don't the Elder Gods seem to have done a singularly bad job in imprisoning Cthulhu and kin? I mean, R'lyeh rises periodically, Ithaqua can wander around and send wind elementals all over the world, Hastur and Cthugha can be summoned easily enough…
In the tales that Cthulhu & Hastur are mentioned , Hastur aid the humans in fligth Cthulhu (at the cost of some SAN points , of course) , sending winged messengers to transport them.
Right, the "Trail of Cthulhu" stories. Great Old One as radio dispatcher.
Where do you see an octopoid depictation of Hastur? He has no known cultist among humans , almost none that has been related to me in HPL or Derleth tales….
I'll have to check the CTHULHU MYTHOS BIBLIOGRAPHY ($27.95, worth every penny) to see if any cultists are mentioned in fiction - there are lots in Chaosium's work, from everybody's favorite heavy metal band in CTHULHU NOW to the merry crew in "King of Shreds and Patches." The only cultist I can think of offhand in Mythos fiction is the priest in Tibet in "The Sandwin Compact."
The octopoid appearance of Hastur comes from Derleth's "The Gable Window":
"Nov. 17, '21. Utterly alien landscape. Not of earth so far as I know. Black heavens, some stars. Crags of porphyry or some similar substance. Foreground a deep lake. Hali? In five minutes the water began to ripple where something rose. Facing inward. A titanic aquatic being, tentacled. Octopoid, but far, far larger—ten—twenty times larger than the giant Octopus apollyon of the west coast. What was its neck was alone easilt fifteen rods in diameter. Could no risk chance of seeing its face and destroyed the star."
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 00:26:09 +0100 (CET)
From: Delta Green
You beat me };->
But the market laws are multimensionaly valid…not the humans as consumers , but products (i.e. FOOD)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 13:33:31 -0800
From: Josh Shaw
. According to Tibetan belief, there's a female demon sleeping beneath the mountains, with arms and legs stretching off into the deserts of far west China and the jungles of Burma. The "heart" is apparently below a drained lake near Lhasa, the capital, and there's a temple built right on top of it—acting just like a stake through the heart of a vampire.
So what happens when the Chinese level it to make way for a new police station or something?
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 23:20:33 -0500 (EST)
From: The Man in Black
David Farnell makes an excellent substitute for the ume in a Bento. Be sure that your SuperDave is pickled with Sake for the best flavor:
However, there certainly is something sleeping beneath the Himalayas. According to Tibetan belief, there's a female demon sleeping beneath the mountains, with arms and legs stretching off into the deserts of far west China and the jungles of Burma. The "heart" is apparently below a drained lake near Lhasa, the capital, and there's a temple built right on top of it—acting just like a stake through the heart of a vampire. There are other "demon-subduing temples" at various other points, like the head, the joints, and so on, many of them well outside Tibet, and many of them "lost."
I was reading in a dubious book called "Timeless Earth" (forgit author and all) about vast tunnels under the Earth built by a vanished ancient race of space aliens (or Cthonians). Perhaps this demon is a metaphor for these hollow earth tunnels, with the temples being portals between Frobozz's Great Underground Empire and the surface world.
Let's not forget the underground city of Xanadu and that Genghis Khan wannabe from The Shadow, or other Lost Tibetan Cities like Shangri-La.
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 01:23:14 -0500 (EST)
From: "Andrew D. Gable"
March 24, 1999: T-282 days and counting. Heedless of the impending cataclysm, The Man in Black wrote:
I was reading in a dubious book called "Timeless Earth" (forgit author and all) about vast tunnels under the Earth built by a vanished ancient race of space aliens (or Cthonians). Perhaps this demon is a metaphor for these hollow earth tunnels, with the temples being portals between Frobozz's Great Underground Empire and the surface world.
There are strange tunnels under Monte Alban, an Olmec (?) city in Mexico. The tunnels are extremely small (IIRC, the explorers who found Monte Alban could only navigate them by crawling) yet evidently, they weren't used for drainage. They probably proved to be something innocuous, but the "forbidden archaeology" view on them was that they were used by a prehistoric race of dwarves.
One of the pieces of evidence they used for the dwarfish race was Pedro, a tiny mummy found in 1932 in Wyoming. X-rays have determined that Pedro apparently was an adult (or at least had adult proportions), yet was only 14 inches tall. The skeptic's explanation was he was an infant with anencephaly, which doesn't quite cut it for me. IIRC, anencephaly causes you to be born with no brain, and doesn't do anything with proportions.
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 12:52:04 +0900
From: "David Farnell"
I could be way off base but could it be Leung? And isn't there something in Chinese about Leung=Dragon, mountains are sleeping dragons,asian geomancy,etc? I could be making some jumps of assumption there, I'm not much of an asia-phile, maybe one of the ones on the list could explain what I am getting at a little better.
Sorry—I let my emails get built up and started losing things in the piles. Dunno about Leung (although there's Tony Leung, another John Woo star), but Lung is a word for Dragon. However, there certainly is something sleeping beneath the Himalayas. According to Tibetan belief, there's a female demon sleeping beneath the mountains, with arms and legs stretching off into the deserts of far west China and the jungles of Burma. The "heart" is apparently below a drained lake near Lhasa, the capital, and there's a temple built right on top of it—acting just like a stake through the heart of a vampire. There are other "demon-subduing temples" at various other points, like the head, the joints, and so on, many of them well outside Tibet, and many of them "lost." Now, this is so Mythos that I'm sure HPL or others of the circle knew about this, and surely Zhar and Lloigor (the gods) are connected.
And yes, of course it's going to be in the China Chapter of EH!
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 21:08:11 +0100
From: Davide Mana
I'm away for a full day and what do I find when I get back? A flash from the past, courtesy of the Man in Black:
I was reading in a dubious book called "Timeless Earth" (forgit author and all) about vast tunnels under the Earth built by a vanished ancient race of space aliens (or Cthonians).
Peter Kolosimo!!!
PK, the Italian answer to Von Daniken (but nice).
He used to have a slot in a TV-show when I was a kid - he was the most Gray-looking being I ever saw, wearing black turtleneck and corduroys and talking about UFOs, Atlantis or whatever.
He was of German origin and - maybe unrelatedly - some of his books include LOTS of Nazi-related pseudoscience and stuff.
The Tunnels story was mutuated from Von Daniken - he bragged about discovering in the Andes the entrance of a subterranean network that led hinm to Africa!
Kolosimo's version (IIRC) adds strange golden-skinned beings to the mix and the usually bevildered but unshakeable witness to explore the thing.
A great choice of reading matter, oh MiB.
My respect for you rises a pair of notches.
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 11:24:32 +0900
From: "David Farnell"
One of the pieces of evidence they used for the dwarfish race was Pedro, a tiny mummy found in 1932 in Wyoming. X-rays have determined that Pedro apparently was an adult (or at least had adult proportions), yet was only 14 inches tall. The skeptic's explanation was he was an infant with anencephaly, which doesn't quite cut it for me. IIRC, anencephaly causes you to be born with no brain, and doesn't do anything with proportions.
Of course, there's the even more skeptical view that Pedro was … a dwarf! I mean, one person with dwarfism doesn't indicate a race of dwarves. But there were several tribes with legends of "little people." People all over the world have such legends. In some cases they're true (Pygmies, for example). And then there's the Miri Nigri …. And the golden-skinned beings Davide mentioned make a good K'n Yan race.
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 17:50:06 EST
From: Mark McFadden
Of course, there's the even more skeptical view that Pedro was … a dwarf! I mean, one person with dwarfism doesn't indicate a race of dwarves. But there were several tribes with legends of "little people."
Pedro was exceptionally small and had *adult proportions*. If we are using the term "dwarf" to describe someone with dwarfism, Pedro wasn't a dwarf. Which is also picking nits for no good reason since the principle (one sample don't a race make) is still valid.
So, what's with the Little People, huh? We've got the Norse with their squat, wise, heroically endowed race of dwarfish smiths.
We've got Le Cagot among the Basque (squat, equistrianly endowed outcasts who were restricted to tinkery and metalwork). Consider the theory that the Basque are the original inhabitants of Europe, but they say Le Cagot were older. We've got the Tolkien dwarves descended from Norse and Anglo Saxon(IIRC) legends.
I don't recall any legends of dwarves coming up from the south. The Greeks were big on giants, but I can't remember any dwarves. Don't remember any in Gilgamesh. Bible, ditto.
Egyptians left pictures of dwarves, but no indication of a race of them that I can remember.
The Little People of the Native Americans (North and South) are proportioned like pygmies; scale models of us. Hosage optional. Designer colors. Often with pointed ears, like Mescalito or Peter Pan. Comes in Good, Bad, and Ugly.
Greys. And the pointy-eared, anime-eyed, hippy warriors that everyone has come to know and love?
You know where this is going, right? We'll talk about dwarves and Little People around the world, and someone will point out the dwarf jesters of European courts, which will send in the clowns for a carnival, and the Clown in Yellow with his entourage of Scottish Rite Masons will lead the Wild Hunt into the mountains to exterminate Le Cagot. Which resulted in the creation of the rhinovirus. In 23 BC.
Because Nyarlathotep told them to. To piss off Hastur.
Mark "James Burke" McFadden
And that's what the Order of the Sword of St. Jerome is defending us against. With Wackenhut mercenaries who are willing to risk using PCP and a hellfire trigger under GURPS rules.
Original index
The original archivist in the Ice Cave named the emails and indexed them, as follows:
Leng Question
Leng Etimology
Leng Details in Encyclopedia Cthuliana, 1st ed.
King Gesar
Leng Details in Encyclopedia Cthuliana, 2nd ed. (and elsewhere)
Gesar of Ling
Cthulhu Cult in Leng?
More Meanings of the word "Leng"
Leng in Chinese
Leng and Derleth
Tibetan Folklore and St Jerome Activities
Tcho-tcho DNA and Leng
More Folklore and Mythos
Hastur and Leng
Hastur and Cthulhu
Good Book Reference
Strange Tunnels
Tibetan demons Sleeping under lakes
Peter Kolosimo
Pedro
Mythos Pedro
Original dedication
In its original form in the Ice Cave, this email archive bore the following dedication:
This document is dedicated to Mr Peter Devlin, esq.