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Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 00:01:11 -0500
From: Daniel Harms <ude.olaffub.usca|smrahmd#ude.olaffub.usca|smrahmd>
Last night, I was talking with some friends, and I was told that if I asked this question on the list I'd be called all sorts of names, accused of foulness and depravity, and eventually forced to leave with jeers and catcalls ringing in my ears. So, of course I have to ask it.
How does the Cthulhu Mythos and Lovecraftian philosophy fit into people's conception of Delta Green? How do the two interact, and are there areas in which the two are incompatible? If so, how do individual keepers handle it?
There aren't any right or wrong answers to these questions, but I'm curious as to what people say.
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 23:31:57 -0800
From: Lech Von Oxen
Had I the opportunity, I would get Harms' autograph on both my editions of the Encyclopedia Cthulhiana, then I'd take those vile, sinful tomes and give him a paperback enema.
My answer is as such, then, oh most-wise Daniel-son:
In Lovecraft, you'll find evil where-ever you look.
In DG it's the same.
Don't let 'em escape, just pretend there was a chance.
In the end, everyone should die.
Date: 17 Nov 1998 15:40 GMT
From: FRANK M ADAMS
An apparently revived Lech responded to the multi-talented (multi-grained? as well) Daniel Harms:
Had I the opportunity, I would get Harms' autograph on both my editions of the Encyclopedia Cthulhiana, then I'd take those vile, sinful tomes and give him a paperback enema.
Can I watch? I'll even bring the donuts.
My answer is as such, then, oh most-wise Daniel-son:
And a good one it is, but I feel I must redress it.
In Lovecraft, you'll find evil where-ever you look.
In Lovecraft, you'll find what evil he's willing to show you. And it's a pretty evil at that, one-sided and clean. In our multi-shaded world of greys and blacks you'll find evil where-ever you look. The harder you look, the more you'll find.
In DG, Evil is a narrow definition of the word Humanity.
The Mythos is what some would aspire to and others oppose. While all the time it hurtles onward without a backward glance at the hairless meat-sacks that scramble like microbes under a scope. Living what they call lives while Things they were not meant to know move in circles measured by the birth and death of stars.
Evil. It's our word and has no counterpart in the Mythos vocabulary and that's the way it should be. It applies to us and us alone. DG is a world where supposedly "less evil" meat-sacks kill other "more evil" meat-sacks and the occasional ghoul or shoggoth. Those From Beyond don't even pause to scratch.
Have fun kids.
In DG it's the same.
In DG, it's even worse, but it's also better. There is evil you can see more plainly, fight it regardless of the futility and sometimes even think you won. Unfortunately winning isn't always for the best and you can never really be sure who you're winning for. DG is our world with a twist of the truly alien. It's a world where desperate heroes try to piss on a forest fire with a belly full of cold coffee, their dick in one hand and a gun with one round left for themselves in the other. It's a world where seekers of truth are consumed by the answers they find and pay for their education with sanity and soul. It's a bright wonderful world where Barney is a costume full of animate proto-matter and the Teletubbies are incarnations of fractal chaos with a message only our future youth can understand and embrace. Welcome home.
Don't let 'em escape, just pretend there was a chance.
There's always a chance. If you're bold enough, cowardly enough, vicious enough or lucky enough to make it happen. But there is no real escape… ever. Not in the true sense of the word. The "lucky" ones are those tortured few who live to babble and drool and scream of the fate they narrowly avoided, only to succumb to the darkness inside all of us. To eke out their remaining years grasping feebly at the true nature of a universe much bigger and more complex than even dreaming Cthulhu could hope to comprehend. Let them escape. Then let the REAL fun begin…
In the end, everyone should die.
In the end everyone DOES die. For given strange aeons, even death may die… But when the story is told, some should live. Not always, but sometimes. To tell the tale and lure others to a fate far worse than the heart attack, cancer or tragic blimp accident that waits for us all. This perverse and familiar initiation is what makes the alien that much more horrifying. Nothing is as sweetly sickening as when a friend or lover asks you earnestly from a darkened corner, with your sweaty palm wrapped around a smoking steel and lead suicide pill and your heart hammering in your throat… "Tell me, brother, have you seen the yellow sign?"
Bold and brash and drunk on cheap wine,
Or cold, snivelling and teary. Eyes wide and shiny with fear and the merest glimmer of understanding. Finger clutching spasmodically at the trigger of their empty and useless gun. Wet and stinking from their own steaming urine and their partner's salty and rapidly cooling blood…
Lech.
Once again writing his own blasphemous evil things while bold and brash and drunk on cheap wine…
DG is a world too much like our own, but not evil and apathetic enough. It is, however, far more twisted and corrpt than HPL's world vision. Because now we THINK we have a better understanding of THEM and some of us even THINK we can make a difference. That is where the DG world is far worse than HPL's, for now we are sleeping with our enemies and are armed with inaccurate knowledge more dangerous and foolish than the most blatent ignorance. WE are our own worst enemy. Those from Beyond are just glad to help us finish the job.
Truth hurts, but so does a thumb in the eye. If you want to be safe and happy, STAY IGNORANT. But if you want to die in gruesome disgusting ways far from home in strange and exotic locales, then step right up! Have I got a job for you…
Sweet dreams,
From: Christian Conkle
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 08:49:48 -0800
How does the Cthulhu Mythos and Lovecraftian philosophy fit into people's conception of Delta Green? How do the two interact, and are there areas in which the two are incompatible? If so, how do individual keepers handle it?
In my campaign, it was subtle, background, just waiting to be discovered, always just around the next bend.
In our AD&D campaign, we have a saying, "As you round the corner you see a(n).." To hear that preface spells certain doom! As a result, our party rarely rounded corners if we could help it. That's how I ran the Mythos in my campaign. It was the … just around the corner. The players had the impression something was just around the corner, they just didn't know what.
The Mythos operates much as a Newtonian mechanical universe works. They are the cogs in an Universal Machine. Interlocking pieces of a puzzle that can not be stopped. Fundamental Forces of the Cosmos at work. It is the understanding of the inevitableness of events that drives men mad, and the hope that we have the slimmest of chances to stop the gears that keeps men sane.
Seemingly sane cultists are the best way to introduce this feeling of inevitability to PC's. People who believe they are either grease in the Cosmic Gears or trying to postpone the inevitable. Give them a chance to interact with the PC's, explain a little of what's going on. Don't give away the farm, mind you, just bait them and provide them with a little evidence that they're not full of crap.
In my campaign, it was Rex Hagans, the ex-NSA operative that left government work to lead the Army of the Yellow Sign. He saw the way things really were and decided to be a part of it. He wasn't insane, per se, at least not cackling. The PC's found him to be an intelligent and provocative personality, if a little intense, so listened to what he had to say. Of course, at first they thought he was full of shit, but when little bits of evidence started coming in to support his story, the PC's attitudes towards Hagans, and towards the universe in general, began to change.
Mind you, they still don't know a great Cosmic Machine is at work. But they know something's just around the corner.. and that's enough.
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 16:51:21 -0500 (EST)
From: Daniel M Harms
In my campaign, it was subtle, background, just waiting to be discovered, always just around the next bend.
[snip of good response]
My response is, then, what is the nature of what's around the bend?
I was thinking that in Delta Green we see the convergence of two different types of source material. On one hand, we have the occult/ conspiracy media, in which humanity is of prime importance. If aliens are abducting us, it must be because we have something they need. Even conspiracy theories are humanocentric, because their broader meanings come from the actions of the people who control them. On the other hand, we have Lovecraft's views of the cosmos, in which all of these broader meanings are constructed and the best we can do is find some of them more aesthetically pleasing than others and make use of them.
I'm interested to know how people negotiate these shoals, and if anyone's found interesting ways to work with them. I think that for some, the Cthulhu Mythos is more of a bestiary and source of magic than anything else, and that's perfectly all right (though I would question whether it was being used to best effect in that way). Your system certainly works, but I'd like to know if there are others, or how many people lean to one side or another.
From: Christian Conkle
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 14:31:45 -0800
<spoilers>
I, of course, can't speak for the other twisted and diabolical minds on this list, but the mechanics of my mythos work like this:
Great Old Ones operate on great cosmic cycles of activity/inactivity blah blah blah.
Humans posses capacity for great mental powers, thus making them succeptible to the ELF waves of GOOs or whatever so that they worship them and want to wake them. Sort of a species-wide alarm clock. All we're here for is to provide Mr. C. with his wake-up call.
Funguys come to Earth. Find that Earth has lots of the metal they want. They also find somnombulant GOOs. The Funguys figure they've got such-and-such hundred-million years to mine all they stuff they want before the GOOs wake up. So they get to work. A million or so years before they're scheduled to finish, these pesky human begin to evolve, whether it's according to some cosmic Elder Thing plan or not. The Funguys recognize the capacity in these beings to hasten the process of GOO awakening (through the use of spells, worship, whatever). But they're not done here, whatever is there to do?
Therefore they begin a program of alteration to the human Genom, er genome (whoops, wrong game). Their goal is to lower mankind's telepathic ability/susceptibility to postpone the GOO's return. A few early humans recognize the program and go underground, literally. They become the Kn'Yan and all they want to do is hasten the GOO's comeback like they're spose'ta, and the pesky Sky Devils are making that tougher, so they begin a program of counter-involvement, hoping to undo the damage done by the Gunfuys.
Which brings us to the current situation of things. Sky Devils are altering humans until they get all they want out of the Earth's resources, then they'll leave us to our own devices. Kn'Yan are behind the MIB phenomena (in my campaign) surrepticiously organizing attempts to foil the Sky Devil's plans and hasten the GOO's return 'cause their dreams told them to. Regular human joes like us are unwitting pawns in the whole process.
It's a little Derlethian, but I was trying to give my humans "damned if we do and damned if we don't" or "caught between a rock or hard place" or "out of the frying pan and into the fire" alternatives. I'm out of cliche's.
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 18:41:44 -0500
From: Graeme Price
I was thinking that in Delta Green we see the convergence of two >different types of source material.
[snip]
I'm interested to know how people negotiate these shoals, and if anyone's found interesting ways to work with them. I think that for some, the Cthulhu Mythos is more of a bestiary and source of magic than anything else, and that's perfectly all right (though I would question whether it was being used to best effect in that way). Your system certainly works, but I'd like to know if there are others, or how many people lean to one side or another.
Deep Daniel. Very deep. Seriously, I for one don't actually think that the two facets contradict each other. As far as the "humanocentric" view goes, isn't everything humanocentric to a greater or lesser extent? If we (as humans) observe something (anything), we can only understand it from a human perspective. This is only natural. Think about observing the sun for example. As humans we perceive it to be hot and a source of light - that's the obvious. To actually _understand_ what it is… well that's a different question entirely. To ancient people, the Sun was a God interacting with other Gods. As human perspective changed, it became a ball of fiery gas and later a self-sustaining nuclear reaction. As our knowledge increases, our perspective changes, and so does our understanding of that which we observe. In fact, Heisenberg had a lot to say about all this. In practical terms, all we need to know is that aliens are abducting us… this is the observation. The humanocentric view is that this is because we have something they need. This may (or may not) be true. Looking at it an "alienocentric view" could lead us to a completely different understanding… but we cannot do this as we are not aliens. In other words, all the conspiracy theories cannot reveal the "truth", as the "truth" depends on the observer (or the conspiracist) and is not fixed.
Now as for HPLs view of the cosmos… my understanding (see above!) of this is that it essentially boils down to something like: There are forces in the universe which are more powerful than humanity and are essentially neutral to humanity. Other forces (Nyalathotep) interact with humanity for thier own purposes. In any case, humanity is insignificant in cosmic terms. A full understanding of the cosmos (and it's inhabitants) will damage human intellects and drive men mad.
My own feeling is that, in the long run, this is what science is going to uncover anyway, but I missed my lithium shot this morning.
The Mythos? Well, that fits in with the "other forces" I mentioned above. The stand I take on magic is that it simply cannot yet be explained by science. This is pretty fundamental to the whole concept, as it doesn't mean that science _cannot_ explain effects we take to be magical, simply that it can't do so _at this time_. If you have a certain knowledge which allows you to manipulate the universe to cause a desired effect, then isn't that a definition which could equally describe magic or science? In point of fact, wouldn't someone who could shatter stone by mixing sulphur, saltpetre and charcoal and setting light to it have been feared as a sorceror in ancient times? Yet, we accept this as simple chemistry now.
So, my contention would be that the mythos and magic could all be explained by science (just give me time and the reserach funding…). The hostile nature of the universe (note that the universe isn't intentionally hostile: it couldn't care less about humanity: the universe is just doing what it does) is self evident to me. A paralell can be drawn with evolution - mutations happen by chance, with a beneficial mutation being selected for, a neutral mutation being ignored, and a disadvantageous mutation being selected against. This process (which is accepted as fact… except possibly in the Deep South [sigh!]) is essentially a mirror of the universe… the arbiter (the universe or selective pressure) essentially remains neutral, but the actions of the inhabitants can change the parameters of the arbiter. I hope that makes sense - it's been a long day. I guess this is one of the things which appeals to me about HPLs writing and CoC in general: It all fits into a rationalistic, logical (scientific?) framework.
Delta Green's role in this would be to try and change these parameters. To push back the darkness, but not necessarily to understand it. Delta Green (or investigators in general) shouldn't worry about the mechanistics and concentrate on the matter in hand (i.e. whopping the cultists)… lest they learn too much and play out their role in the universe from inside a nice padded cell.
I probably haven't made any sense whatsoever. But then, isn't that what you would expect?
From: the Man in Black
How does the Cthulhu Mythos and Lovecraftian philosophy fit into people's conception of Delta Green? How do the two interact, and are there areas in which the two are incompatible? If so, how do individual keepers handle it?
Enough Noise, now for some Signal:
I tend to keep philosophy and paradigm in the background. I *do* keep nihilism and despair firmly in mind when constructing plot and setting mood etc. but downplay it at the gaming table.
Basically I use the whole Uncaring and Hostile Universe as a tool for solid role-playing. I'd toss it in heartbeat if I thought such a discard would make for a better story or be more fun for everyone.
Like too many keepers, I use the philosophy as an excuse to hose the players, but make sure that NPC's and alien monsters get hosed just as bad. Basically I set up scenarios where the ideal conclusion is where everybody dies and everything blows up real good (or vice-versa).
Total Karnage!
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 03:17:47 +0100 (MET)
From: Andreas Melhorn
I'm interested to know how people negotiate these shoals, and if anyone's found interesting ways to work with them. I think that for some, the Cthulhu Mythos is more of a bestiary and source of magic than anything else, and that's perfectly all right (though I would question whether it was being used to best effect in that way). Your system certainly works, but I'd like to know if there are others, or how many people lean to one side or another.
You mentioned one of the most important things: we have got two different types of resource material: the Mythos and conspiracy in generell.
Usually I am running a usual mythos game, which probably involves some conspiracy. The characters are confronted with some horrific scheme, a mystery of some sort. When they are lucky, they can handle it somehow and save the day. (That is a little bit different to Lovecraft's philosophy that everybody is doomed.)
All the agency stuff it only the background. The main difference is what the characters discover: a monster in a cave, a mad slasher (his insanity is caused by a Mythos drug) or MJ-12 collaborating with the Mi-Go. (And of course, the occupation of the investigators.)
I don't think that there really is a big difference between a DG game and another CTH game. When you write an adventure, you first think about the background. That can be a mystery in a village, an evil cult, or MJ-12. I don't handle the Mythos differently in any of the cases.
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 14:10:25 +0100
From: Davide Mana
A lot of nice observations have been made starting from Daniel original post. Not much to add, maybe, but a few tangentially on-topic ramblings spring to mind.
Greame wrote
So, my contention would be that the mythos and magic could all be explained >by science (just give me time and the reserach funding…).
I agree with this position.
And the time factor can be relevant, of course.
But also, I'd like to point out the fact that we might as well be intruders in this universe.
This feeling is often present in HPL's works, after all: we evolved by casual mutations from some Elder Things lab-wastes not properly treated. We do not understand how things work (or if we do, our mind cracks). What if we are simply _not equipped_ to understand the general workings of this Universe?
We are basically different from the "Old Ones" - down to the genetic structure, even worse, down to the very substance we are made of. What if we are the real aliens?
The real "monsters" in the traditional sens of "things against the natural order"?
The hostile nature of the universe (note that the universe isn't intentionally hostile: it couldn't care less about humanity: the universe is just doing what it does) is self evident to me.
Is it rejecting us?
If Lovecraft's GOO are in fact personifications of the forces controlling, shaping this universe, they are certainly much more attuned to it than we are. Are we upstart intruders making waves?
A paralell can be drawn with evolution - mutations happen by chance, with a beneficial mutation being selected for, a neutral mutation being ignored, and a disadvantageous mutation being selected against.
To quote a well known author: "But it's much more complicated than that". No direct criticism on you, Graeme (far from that!), but please please remember that the above can give a false impression - on which entire thought-systems have been created, and that in a few cases have messed up quite a few human lifes.
There's actually no merit in surviving natural selection. The survivors are not necessarily better than the deceased. The random element cannot be emphasized too much.
I'm not going to wave any neo-catastrophist flag here, but as Resident Mass Extinction Pratictioner on the list, I'd like to point out that a lot of very successfull critters have been wiped out through the geological timeline just because they were in the wrong place at the wrong moment.
And even those lines that have prospered throughout a large part of the planet's history (insects, for instance), have suffered such changes in their structure that "continuity" becomes a rather nebulous concept.
So, "when the razor boy comes and takes your fancy things away" (to quote an old song) he is not taking sides and he is not considering wrong or right, successfull or disgraced, strong, fast or whatever. He simply clears the table, and what's left can go on.
This process (which is accepted as fact… except possibly in the Deep South [sigh!])
Let's not get into this kind of things… ;->
is essentially a mirror of the universe… the arbiter (the universe or selective pressure) essentially remains neutral, but the actions of the inhabitants can change the parameters of the arbiter.
Up to a (very small, I fear) point.
While ethologists (sp?) and biologists like very much expressions like "good evolutionary strategy" or "evolutionary success", as there's no way to predict from which direction the next strike will come, there's no ready-made manual or crash course "to survive selection and prosper". If we make it, we are successful.
We all are a success as long as we make it, then we are gone.
Incidentally, thoroughout their permanence on the surface of this planet, humans have tried lots of time to "play evolution". While generally successfull when it comes to breed new varieties of plants or animals - through a trial and error process, basically - men have so far screwed up badly whenever they have tried to apply an "evolutionistic" or "darwinian" set of parameters to themselves and their activities. Economies crumble, wars erupt, things take a turn for worse. Trial and error is a bad thing when you apply it to yourself, it seems. But this also shows that our understanding of the mechanisms implementing (or is it "enforcing"?) evolution is less than perfect to say the least.
Which casts a very poor light on the following:
Delta Green's role in this would be to try and change these parameters.
A lost cause if ever there was one.
And if really the Great Old Ones are one with the universe and the faceless parameters that govern it, then trying to change the parameters would be going against the flood, or to be more technical, it would be a counter-evolutionary strategy.
Which all in all leaves us more or less where Lovecraft left us so many years ago: there's no hope. You can either face it, and go crazy, or ignore the evidence and keep pushing no matter what. Stubborn bastards we are, we upstart primates, eh?
Delta Green: working to make sure that we'll still have a song to sing when the razor boy comes…
There are worst fates, I guess.