![]() |
What follows is an archival copy of public information. Content herein is believed to be of historical interest to Delta Green fandom and should remain untouched, as a sign of respect for the original author(s). The article must be removed on request by copyright holders, if any. Please improve the wiki with living documents inspired by the ideas here. |
![]() |
The following material was imported from the Ice Cave. |
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 15:37:28 -0700
From: Robert Baxter
I was wondering if anyone has considered the place of the dreamlands in the delta-green milieu? What do you all think of the dreamlands being in the 1990's? What kind of beasts could cross over and what kind of adventures could take place?
Im just kind of fishing for scenarios.
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 19:44:52 -0400 (EDT)
From: The Man in Black
Robert Baxter, how would you like to be a Gorilla?:
I was wondering if anyone has considered the place of the dreamlands in the delta-green milieu? What do you all think of the dreamlands being in the 1990's? What kind of beasts could cross over and what kind of adventures could take place?
Well, there was the thread about the infamous Ghoul Heroin smugglers/Tcho-Tcho golden triangle french connection thing.
I personally would run the dreamlands more like Neil Gaiman than Lovecraft tho', with maybe a Hypnos/Morpheus subtext/subplot. A lot of the dreamlands stuff causes a horrid dissonance in me when used with a modern day setting of horror and conspiracy.
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 00:50:03 +0100
From: PM
I was wondering if anyone has considered the place of the dreamlands in the delta-green milieu? What do you all think of the dreamlands being in the 1990's? What kind of beasts could cross over and what kind of adventures could take place?
Check the "Alien Intelligence" stories. THere's one involving the Dreamlands, as these are "home" to the Ghouls, with Special Guest Apearance by Agent Qualls.
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 22:38:25 EDT
From: Michael Layne
I was wondering if anyone has considered the place of the dreamlands in the delta-green milieu? What do you all think of the dreamlands being in the 1990's? What kind of beasts could cross over and what kind of adventures could take place?
Im just kind of fishing for scenarios.
The Dreamlands have occasionally figured in local campaigns I'm involved with. The Dreamlands are normally 500 years or so behind the Waking World in tech and culture, so they're effectively at the 1490s there, at the most modern, with a few exceptions…
Several DG friendlies based out of Boston and Arkham have found their way to The Dreamlands (physically or via Dreaming), and at least one case concerned a non-DG scientist accidentally allowing Dreamlands creatures to access the Waking World!
This case involved the Miskatonic University research physicist, Dr. Nikolai Populak, who invented a machine that was supposed to record dreams, but which actually had the side-effect of opening a gate to The Dreamlands! A variety of critters wandered through, some of them munching on the redshirts — er, building guards and grad students…
CDR Michael Holland, Dr. Harrison Carter Jr., Niles Hubbard Boardman, and some other Friendlies and peripheral individuals got involved… Populak eventually went mad, and was killed by one of the creatures he had summoned. A big tentacled creature attempted to pass through the gate, and grabbed and ate team member Dan Silverleaf, a parapsychologist (Ranger-trained! Jumps out of airplanes and psychoanalyzes people?):)!
While Carter and Boardman started making complex plans involving rituals and Elder Signs, Holland matter-of-factly drew his .45 and shot a vulnerable part of the machine, shutting it down sufficiently fast that the closing gate nipped off part of a tentacle from old Double-Ugly! (Several capacitors inside the machine thereupon discharged, melting part of the machine's insides…)
The survivors very wisely did not attempt to show the bit of tentacle to the authorities. Holland still has Populak's blueprints in his condo's safe, but — very wisely — has not attempted to use them to build another machine!
Some things that are lost should _stay_ lost!
Holland's wife Anna later on helped guide him to The Dreamlands, where it turned out that she had been a Dreamer for quite awhile, and had somehow come into the rule of a small principality upriver from Ulthar (think of Grand Fenwick…) :) — complete with castle, villages, farms, and Countess' title! Being her husband, Holland was of course acknowledged as the Count (and when a couple of his colleagues from the Waking World were heard to call him "Captain", the locals nodded in understanding — Holland was obviously a veteran Captain of a military company, who had gotten lucky — a fitting husband for Her Excellency!
They had no doubt that the succession problems were now taken care of! (And they were quite correct, but that, as they say, is Another Story…))
Boardman and his girlfriend Claire Linebarger decided to wander off, got separated, and eventually reunited in the Ghoul tunnels — where Boardman discovered that his girlfriend had turned into a Ghoul! She eventually bore him a set of odd-looking triplets, but decided to remain in The Dreamlands permanently!
Dr. Harrison Carter Jr., apparently thinking this was D$D-Land, decided to go off and adventure. (You'd think he'd have read his relative's account…) He found various types of trouble, from which he barely extricated himself… :)
On the last of these little adventures, Carter got physically gated to The Dreamlands (by Narly, in the middle of a battle with Mythos critters), where he spent some considerable time in various solo adventures in weird places, before making it home (much the worse for wear) with his POW depleted and his magical sword-cane powerless! (He spent much time in later adventures trying to "recharge" it, but was never quite able to!)
In a later adventure, Dr. Eloise Margaret Falworth (in the Waking World, the Deputy Director of Medical Support Services for NUMA, as well as being a Master Chirurgeon in the SCA) discovered how to get to The Dreamlands, and eventually made a name for herself, as "Lady Eloise, the Healer from far-off Carolingia"… (For you non SCAdians, Carolingia is the East Kingdom Barony which includes the Boston area!)
She couldn't, of course, bring her medical bag to The Dreamlands, and has had an interesting time separating fact from folklore and finding local equivalents for many of her medicines.
This has not always been boring work… ("The healing properties of this herb are amazing! You say it only grows in the Perfumed Jungle of Kled, near the Lost City?"):)
While she has had to defend herself from various wild creatures, the local humans don't bother her because:
a. She's a Healer, and you don't molest Healers — never can tell when you might need the services of one yourself someday…
b. Healers are said to know Magic (the only magic Dr. Falworth is interested in is _healing magic_, but they don't know that!)…
and
c. When the notorious bandit Louis de la Wombat (self-proclaimed "King of the Goblins") showed up with his band of merry Goblins, and demanded "Stand and deliver!", Dr. Falworth promptly clocked him with a head shot from her quarterstaff (what can I say? It was a lucky die roll!):), and the bandits promptly failed their morale check and routed! ("You do _not_ upset the woman who knocked Louis de la Wombat out with one blow from her staff!")
When she isn't serving as a public health advisor for the Hollands' palatine County, or leading an expedition to some odd part of The Dreamlands in search of some medicinal herb, or working in her "day job" (with the National Underwater & Marine Agency) in the Waking World, Dr. Falworth may sometimes be found in the Ulthar Library, trying to learn medical spells, to better be able to aid the sick and injured she encounters!
(Unlike some of her occasional acquaintances, she is totally uninterested in spells that summon Mythos critters, turn foes inside out, blast castles to dust, etc.):)
Sorry to be so long-winded, but I hope this has given you some indication of the sort of things that can go on in The Dreamlands, even when it is the closing years of the 20th century in the Waking World!
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 23:27:57 -0500
From: William Timmins
In my campaign, DG used the Dreamlands as a highly secure, if tempermental, contact method with an extreme under cover operative in Majestic. DG is rather certain that Majestic's knowledge of most paranormal phenomena is rather minute, and so the method worked well.
Things then got sticky. Their one contact with the undercover operative died in a typical FUBAR situation. After a few weeks, and before they could manage to contact the operative, said operative died.
DG then went out on a limb and assembled a team to enter the Dreamlands (in their dreams) and try to track down the dead operative, knowing that there was a slight chance he had survived on in the Dreamlands, and debrief him.
This was a moderate success… he was indeed alive in the Dreamlands. He had, however, been kidnapped by a (rather stupid) sorceror in the services of Haon-Dor, originally to have a dreamer from the Waking World, and later, after discovering he was dead in the Waking World, to lure other living Dreamers.
Other uses of Dreamlands? I had a side plot, featuring Grandma from my Endtime stuff (Majestic sentient machine with plans of her own), who maintained a presence (as a big stack of basalt blocks and flickering lights) in the Dreamlands. She hoped to use it for a number of things and as a last ditch survival plan, but I never got around to working it into the campaign.
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 13:24:45 +0900
From: "David Farnell"
Agent Baxter (hey, anybody ever see that cool French movie _Baxter_?) wrote:
I was wondering if anyone has considered the place of the dreamlands in the delta-green milieu? What do you all think of the dreamlands being in the 1990's?
Some really good stories on this thread—giving me lots of good ideas. My own experience has been mixed. I've got one PC who's presently messing around in the Dreamlands. He read the journals of one of my old 1920s characters, which lead him to the Dreamlands where he found this character running a tavern in Ulthar. The 1920s guy had become a Dream Master in later life, to the loint where he'd created his own Domain within the Dreamlands.
Within the tavern, it was the 1920s/30s in style, and they had acts like Roy Orbison (definitely a Dreamer), making for a pretty eclectic situation as most of the customers were out of a pseudo-Middle Ages culture (although I play it like a gaijin-bar here in Japan—most of the customers are locals, but it's a big hangout for expats from around the world).
The 1920s NPC was there to give advice, but the PC started relying on him too much, so I've pulled the rug out from under him. In his present attempt to contact the tavern-owner, the PC ended up not in Ulthar, but in an entirely different place out of the Old West. This is the Midlands realm out of Stephen King's Dark Tower series. He didn't have much chance to check things out, however, as he got trapped into a meeting with Alzis, who's making him an offer he CAN refuse, but probably won't….
I see the Dreamlands as a key part of the Mythos, but it's really hard to use it while keeping things from getting silly. Personally, I think it's one of the main weapons we have in our fight to survive the Mythos (note I didn't say "defeat the Mythos"). The Dreamlands are older than humanity, yet large parts are ruled by humanity, and we can have great power there.
Perhaps our mental workings that so interest the Mi-Go are what allow us to be Dreamers of power. Perhaps somehow part of the Earth can be merged with the Dreamlands, saving it. Will the Dreamlands be destroyed when the GOO rise, or will there be a war there, too?
I'd say you shouldn't let just any character become a Dreamer. It rather ruins the mood when Agent Studly Badass strides into the Dreamlands. You can very simply rule that only characters with the right mindset can become Dreamers (this mindset can be subconscious, though—Agent Badass might be a sensitive poet at heart without realizing it). Of course, tossing unprepared tough guys into the Dreamlands can be fun, too, but I'd suggest sending them there by spell or drug or gate, not by their own power.
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 17:26:11 -0400 (EDT)
From: The Man in Black
Perhaps our mental workings that so interest the Mi-Go are what allow us to be Dreamers of power. Perhaps somehow part of the Earth can be merged with the Dreamlands, saving it. Will the Dreamlands be destroyed when the GOO rise, or will there be a war there, too?
Hmmm… You never see the Mi-Go in the dreamlands do you?
I'd say you shouldn't let just any character become a Dreamer. It rather ruins the mood when Agent Studly Badass strides into the Dreamlands. You can very simply rule that only characters with the right mindset can become Dreamers (this mindset can be subconscious, though—Agent Badass might be a sensitive poet at heart without realizing it). Of course, tossing unprepared tough guys into the Dreamlands can be fun, too, but I'd suggest sending them there by spell or drug or gate, not by their own power.
Or send them into a violent badass realm, or into a bloody magical war between two dreamland cities/nations.
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 17:51:32 EDT
From: Shane Ivey
Perhaps our mental workings that so interest the Mi-Go are what allow us to be Dreamers of power. Perhaps somehow part of the Earth can be merged with the Dreamlands, saving it. Will the Dreamlands be destroyed when the GOO rise, or will there be a war there, too?
Hmmm… You never see the Mi-Go in the dreamlands do you?
The ability to exist both on Earth and in the Dreamlands does seem to be a trait unique to humans, ghouls, and the Outer Gods (and maybe the "gods of earth," if they ever did anything besides jack around on Kadath). Lovecraft never hinted (to my recollection) that the Fungi or the Elder Things or the Yithians, all accomplished travellers between dimensions, had any existence in the Dreamlands, or that gugs and ghasts and moon-beasts (oh my!) had any "real world" existence. That could well be a prime source of Fungi interest in humans.
I wonder if they do dissections and mind control and anal probes on ghouls, too?
I doubt that the Dreamlands would serve as any real haven to humanity, though, except for those apparently rare souls who are such good dreamers that they can survive in Dream even after they physically are squished by Cthulhu and his posse.
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 18:54:31 -0500
From: "Ricardo J. Mendez"
The ability to exist both on Earth and in the Dreamlands does seem to be a trait unique to humans, ghouls, and the Outer Gods (and maybe the "gods of earth," if they ever did anything besides jack around on Kadath). […] That could well be a prime source of Fungi interest in humans.
A most interesting proposition. Maybe it's only us, poor creatures that can't travel the ether, the only ones able to get in there. It is quite possible that the Fungi and other creatures that live in more than 4 dimensions have too much of a hold in the real universe (the one that humans can't see) to be able to let go of it and enter the Dreamlands.
The idea that might be a possible reason of why they study us is rather valid, too. The fungi might wish to know why them can't reproduce with all their science results that us monkeys get so easily. Why else would they show such an interest in us? I'm sure that they can reproduce our race if needed be.
Yet another reason for not being any Fungi in the Dreamlands is that the Fungi are practical and reasonable by nature, not given to the flights of fancy needed to exist and grow there.
I wonder if they do dissections and mind control and anal probes on ghouls, too?
Hmm… nice point, and I don't see why not. Ghouls are, after all, genetically related to humans, and would seem like a great complement for our race.
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 19:21:06 -0500 (CDT)
From: Tenebrous Technologies
The ability to exist both on Earth and in the Dreamlands does seem to be a trait unique to humans, ghouls, and the Outer Gods (and maybe the "gods of earth," if they ever did anything besides jack around on Kadath).
Don't forget cats. ;)
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 20:49:27 -0500
From: William Timmins
Hmmm… You never see the Mi-Go in the dreamlands do you?
Actually, in Dreamlands fourth edition, one of the adventures features Mi-go operating in the Dreamlands of Yuggoth (Plotonian Dreamlands)
I doubt that the Dreamlands would serve as any real haven to humanity, though, except for those apparently rare souls who are such good dreamers that they can survive in Dream even after they physically are squished by Cthulhu and his posse.
Amusingly enough, in my Endtimes material is the header 'Oneiros Option'. I haven't gotten it fit for exposure yet, but it actually is an abortive attempt to do just that. Encourage the majority of humanity to develop Dreaming to the point at which, if all else fails, at least some of humanity continues on in the Dreamlands.
There is also, for the curious, the 'Astral Option', which attempted to create habitats in Astral Space (described in The Golden Dawn book, quite excellent). Among the difficulties in Astral space is the subjective nature of geography, occasional appearances of Hounds of Tindalos, and the rather rapid depletion of SAN.
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 00:33:46 EDT
From: Shane Ivey
Don't forget cats. ;)
True. Of course, somehow I am almost certain that the Mi-Go/Greys do anal probes on cats, too. Only that could explain some of the psycho cats that I've met.
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 00:39:14 -0500 (EST)
From: The Man in Black
BORED? Is the stifling routine of investigating horrors from beyond all time and space getting to you? Do things that man was not meant to know fail to induce mind-shattering terror of the gods and now only induce a lethargic yawning pathos?
Well, then - lucky you, cause I gotta brilliant solution to your pathetic situation…
TRY SOMETHING DIFFERENT!
DREAMLANDS: Focusing a campaign entirely on the dreamlands is probably covered in the Dreamlands sourcebook, but how many have actually tried it? Repercussions between the two worlds can be dramatic and exciting. Some players might be powerful in reality, but weak in the Dreamlands - and vice-versa.
Some disscussion of sweeping changes to the Dreamlands as the ENDTIMES approach has been made. Perhaps dark forces are aligning to destroy or forever alter the nature of this magical realm. This struggle between sorcerers, dreamers and gods could serve as a focus for a memorable campaign.
In a DG game, the fantasy and whimsical dreamlands induces cognitive dissonance something fierce. It just doesn't feel right, and should be kept in the background. But using a group of powerful dreamers as mysterious NPC's could be very interesting.
THE MIRROR WORLD: How about a timetravel/YOG-SOTHOTH sliders sort of adventure where all of history has been altered in the 1920's by investigator failures. A 1000 year reich where Edward Chandler was elected president of the US in 1930, there was no great depression in America, and the Axis powers won WWII with the USA as an Axis Power. A world rapidly cracking under the Seeds of Azathoth, with an atmosphere being drained away by a gate into an interstellar nebulae. A gate created by a rocket launched in 1928 by cultists in Shanghai.
In the 1990's the world has rapidly seen the rise of Mythos entities of all sorts and Majestic-12 is an illegal conspiracy working with the Mi-Go to stall the ENDTIMES. Delta Green is merged with the Karotechia as the Secret Police of a Global Fascist State which serves the Mythos, with Stefan Alzis as World Dictator.
Many of the events discussed in Bill Timmins' ENDTIMES website could happen much earlier in this timeline. Along with fun stuff like the Gulf of Mississippi (from the New Madrid Quake of 1987), the Californian Archipelago, and the Amazonian Ocean. Antarctica could be thawing in this time and the Collapse of the Ross Ice Shelf would have raised Ocean levels drastically.
CARCOSA: A campaign taking place entirely in Carcosa. This has problems due to the total lack of conflict in that surreal city. This problem is being solved by your Man in Black. Watch out for my New Carcosa background. Characters like the Pumpers who, equipped with skull-plumbed cranial spigots, use elaborate chemical apparatus to interface with the plumbing of Carcosa by pumping all manner of occult fluids into their heads. Kinda like netrunners in Cyberpunk, only with hallucinations and high weirdness. Secret Societies like the Saffron Order, dedicated to defacing all the Yellow Signs in the city. Clockwork characters, surreal steampunk cybernetics, and occasional glimpses of undulant tentacle armed folk surrounding a mysterious figure in Yellow.
GOOD TIMES: A parallel universe where Delta Green was not disbanded in 1970 and the Mythos activity is much more contained than in standard CoC. The adventure here is when researchers start going nuts… too much information, and the price of success.
TSAN-CHAN: Why not a campaign set three thousand years hence? How to do it? Easy. "You have been chosen to defend the Earth Realm against the evil forces of OutWorld in a tournament held once every 500 years. A tournament called : MORTAL KOMBAT~!" Make sure you play really loud techno music so everyone has to shout things like "Fatality!", "Flawless Victory!", and "Oooh! That's Gotta Hurt!" to be understood :)
Feel free to jump in with your own alternate histories of DG and ENDTIMES stuff… Do it for the ICE CAVE!
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 00:21:48 -0600 (CST)
From: Tenebrous Technologies
BORED? Is the stifling routine of investigating horrors from beyond all DREAMLANDS: Focusing a campaign entirely on the dreamlands is probably
Some disscussion of sweeping changes to the Dreamlands as the ENDTIMES
I don't think there needs to be sweeping changes. Dream geography doesn't need to work at all like real geography. Modern sections could just be in..other areas. The skills of Dreaming, Dream Lore, etc. could work as described, but in newer areas they might have a minus, or in static areas controled by the sway of other gods or powerful dreamers..also at a minus.
Nyarlathotep help anyone who wanders into my personal dreamrealms.
Or..you might treat technologically higer areas like pockets, things revert into whatever would match the chronological location they are in. A person wearing breeks, a tunic, a sword and chain vest, walks through a door into a concentration camp. He finds himself wearing pants, a longsleeved shirt and a leather vest while holding a luger. Plus it follows dream logic.
An ambitious keeper might prepare weapong slips and armor slips before hand and trade them in and out as players walk from place to place.
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 01:02:34 -0800
From: Joseph Camp
GOOD TIMES: A parallel universe where Delta Green was not disbanded in 1970 and the Mythos activity is much more contained than in standard CoC.
Agents go undercover as a working-class african-american family, utilizing snappy code words ("DY-NO-MITE") and a man-portable laugh track to fight the forces of evil.
Seriously, though, COs looking for an alternate DG campaign might want to visit Pagan drunkard John Tynes' newly updated website. There's an RPG campaign there called "The Zone" that fits neatly in with DG simulation exercises, though it contains no DG content as written:
be seeing you,
Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 09:54:26 -0500
From: William Timmins
Oddly enough, the whimsical air of Dreamlands worked quite well in my DG campaign. There is something subtly disturbing about a fantastic realm that feels somewhat… slightly… safer, more beautiful, more magical. But which still has Elder Signs and Cthulhu and so on.
The dissonance of how such a realm could exist, and how such whimsy can exist in the same reality as mind-numbing horror is, IMO, very interesting.
I've also thought that it might be fun to run a game entirely in the Dreamlands. Basically, it would be like going back to good old AD&D, but with (IMO) a lot more flavor and class.
Speaking of Tsan-Chan (3000 years in the future), I HAVE been mulling over a post-Endtimes campaign thousands of years in the future, when Cthulhu and his race has resumed tumbling between the stars, and humanity slowly tries to reestablish civilization.
You'd have the fun of: Humans returning from the Dreamlands (used to a realm of safe and dramatic magic, trying to figure out what's going on), Survivalist humans (who have scraps of technology and have been barely holding on in out of the way places, and despise the Dreamlanders who fled), High tech humans (remnants of space colonies, infrastructure almost gone, trying to organize the rest of humanity before their civilization completely collapse), Mythos humans (organized into Deep One breeding colonies, not to sure of what to do now that the Great Old Ones have left), and, of course, Alzis.
Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 19:44:18 +0100
From: Davide Mana
BORED?
Never, if the MIB's around.
Well, then - lucky you, cause I gotta brilliant solution to your pathetic situation…
TRY SOMETHING DIFFERENT!
[lots of interesting alternatives snipped for the sake of bandwidth]
Feel free to jump in with your own alternate histories of DG and ENDTIMES stuff… Do it for the ICE CAVE!
As the MIB is plugging my worthless HTML hacking efforts (thanks!), I think I'll do… exactly the same:
A lot of "Ths could be a good alternate setting for DG" talk came out as I was putting together my "niteside dreams" campaign setting and discussing the thing with the Strange Aeons crew.
[partial results are visible at http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/zenith/134/night1.htm]
The idea was to create a noir-like 1940s post-war world where magic worked and was popular (a la "Cast a Deadly Spell") and the Mythos was thrieving on the new opportunities.
Given the premises, a good tongue-in-cheeck attitude was added to the mix.
The thing works rather well for Halloween night one-shot specials
Now, recalling what was said back then and considering also the Man's suggestion, I guess that a Gordon Douglas style "I was a Nazi Cultist for Delta Green" (a check on your "Movie Trivia" skill, please) would make a great one shot scenario.
I plan to update the "niteside dreams" pages during the Christmas period, and a will gladly add a Delta Green hook or two to the thing. Suggestions are gratefully appreciated, as ever.
[another think I'd like to do is a 1960s UK based, Avengers-style Cthulhu campaign setting (no Fiennes-Thurman, please), but that's long in the coming]
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 18:33:02 -0500 (EST)
From: The Man in Black
I don't think there needs to be sweeping changes. Dream geography doesn't need to work at all like real geography. Modern sections could just be in..other areas. The skills of Dreaming, Dream Lore, etc. could work as described, but in newer areas they might have a minus, or in static areas controled by the sway of other gods or powerful dreamers..also at a minus.
Well, my point was that the old areas of the dreamlands would be destroyed and turn into ruins in order to make way for a realm of permanent nightmare. I see no reason to monkey about with the mechanics (I usually use Storyteller or GURPS anyway), just the background. For the ENDTIMES, I wanted to make the Dreamlands less a place of magical mystery and more a place of soul-wrenching horror.
I also wanted to bring a great deal more conflict into the Dreamlands to make it more exciting, with more flashing steel, marching armies and stuff blowing up. I like to have a solid rationale for my hack-n-slash.
The nightmare realms would be an extension of amorphous dreamlands geography. It's just that the borderlands would be much more difficult to cross than they are now.
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 23:19:09 -0500 (EST)
From: The Man in Black
GURPS!? Freak! ;)
The Illuminati are watching you… :)
I'm not a huge fan of the 'other dimension' nature of the Dreamlands. That's cool and all, but I like more of a landscape of the mind and soul sort of setting.
There's a difference?
I also wanted to bring a great deal more conflict into the Dreamlands to make it more exciting, with more flashing steel, marching armies and stuff blowing up. I like to have a solid rationale for my hack-n-slash.
That's fine, but with dream logic, well, it could happen and pass with the frequency of a summer squall.
Yeah, but in my Dreamlands, the conflict is permanent, widespread and global. Every Dreamer in the world is involved. The implications don't just happen in dreams, but also in the waking world.
The nightmare realms would be an extension of amorphous dreamlands geography. It's just that the borderlands would be much more difficult to cross than they are now.
Hmm..in someways, I would think endtimes Dreamland would be .easier. to get into, in order to sway the minds of mankind towards ruin and degredation.
It's just as easy to cross into the dreamlands as it is now, it's just that the borders between different regions (steampunk western Deadlands and swishy-swashy Glorantha) are harder to cross. It's just that I hate mixing Genres, that's all :)
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 18:14:18 -0800
From: "JimmieBise,Jr" <moc.glo|rjbeimmij#moc.glo|rjbeimmij>
Okay, here's the general idea behind The Talisman, and my ideas on it, and how it might fit into DG, along with some assorted Miscellany on Stephen King's Many Worlds writing…..
The Talisman (hereafter called TT, because I'm tired of typing it all….) is based half in our world, and half in a pseudo-medieval world known as The Territories. The Territories corresponds roughly with our world, lying parallel to it, but is slightly smaller. Travelling in this world takes you farther in the Territories, correspondingly. The Territories is loosely ruled by Queen Laura DeLossian (okay, also forgive any slight plot or character errors. I'm typing this at work and don't have the book handy right now, but it's pretty much right on..). Her son's name was Jason, and his counterpart in our world is a teenage boy named Jack Sawyer. Most everyone in our world has a Territories counterpart called a "Twinner".
Interaction between Twinners is rare, because the vast majority of folks know nothing about the Territories. Those who do can move back and forth between this world and that using either a home-brewed concoction to trigger the effect, or by focusing their will and "flipping" from one world to the other. The concoction (a variant of Star Mead, perhaps?) is basically a means to lower the mind's defenses and to focus it on the other world. Once the person has flipped, the prevailing personality takes control of the body (as in the case of the story's main villain, Morgan Sloat, AKA Morgan of Orris). IN the cases of people with no Twinner, the person merely appears in one world and disappears in the other. This is risky, however, as the transition usually has adverse affects on the world which they just left (in one case, Jack's flipping caused an earthquake which toppled a high-rise building..). It is possible to take another person with you when flipping, but it takes much greater effort and apparently can only happen if the other person likewise also has no Twinner.
Places in our world echo greatly on the Territories (i.e. Places of evil here are fare more so there and places of good are also stronger there.). In fact, residual emotion…places where strong emotion has been built long enough to actually leave some psychic residue echo strongly in the Territories. Also, our actions here can have huge consequences there. For instance, our nuclear testing out in Nevada caused a place known as the Blasted Lands, that stretches in the Territories from Missouri Ellis-Breaks in the Territories) to California. Structures here tend to also exist there, but in some form that conforms to the overall setting (i.e. the Hotel from which Jack departs in Maine becomes a large seaside pavilion tent there.).
There is at least one other humanly-sentient species in the Territories. They are called Wolfs (not Wolves…there's a difference), and they, for the most part, resemble the legendary Werewolves, with a few small twists that I would suggest you find out for yourself by reading the book, which is one hell of a read anyhow.
The focal object of the book, which both Jack Sawyer and Morgan sloat seek is The Talisman, which resides, in our world, in the Alhambra Hotel in Point Venuti, California. The Talisman is less an object and more a type of intelligence….perhaps a "reality sink" upon which all the possible worlds turn. In each world, both the Talisman and the place where it rests appear different, and this is as much dependent on the world as anything else.
Control of The Talisman means control of the Worlds, or at least Morgan thinks so. The Talisman also holds great power otherwise…at least the power to heal, most notably. It may do other things, but I don't know.
Those are the big points. What King is doing in books like TT, The Stand, Insomnia, the Dark Tower series, The Mist, and others, is working up a universe of Many Worlds. From the way I read things, our world is the cornerstone world around which many others revolve….or exist…or whatever. He is plain about saying that what we do here affects everywhere else, usually larger and more drastically. Good and Evil exist, but in the other worlds, there really can be heroes, even if we can't have them all the time here.
I see a few things this might mean for DG. First, and easily enough, the Many Worlds are simply places in The Dreamlands, and our thoughts echo large there. I think, though, that the Territories and the world of the Gunslinger can be wrapped into any DG campaign, if you want to, though.
Shotgun Scenarios:
1) A cabal from the Territories want to clean up some places of great misery, and they find that by tacking the locations here, they have to work a +ACo-lot+ACo- less. Perhaps those places in The Territories can't be cleaned up from there at all.
2) One of the Agents has a Twinner who jumps into the agent's body and does all kinds of bad and horrible, or good and angelic, things. When the agent is called to task, he doesn't know a thing. Is he crazy? Infected by a Shan? Schizophrenic?
3) Someone from the Territories is kidnapping people from this world, and bringing them over as slaves in his ore pits or weapons factories.
4) A series of seemingly random deaths is actually someone from the Territories killing off his Lieutenants' Twinners, so they can travel more freely between worlds.
There are more ideas, and I'd love to hear them. I'd also love to hear what y'all think about the Many Worlds Plot and such.
From: "Andrew D. Gable"
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 01:58:20 -0500 (EST)
Sloat, AKA Morgan of Orris). IN the cases of people with no Twinner, the person merely appears in one world and disappears in the other. This is risky, however, as the transition usually has adverse affects on the world which they just left (in one case, Jack's flipping caused an earthquake which toppled a high-rise building..). It is possible to take another person with you when flipping, but it takes much greater effort and apparently can only happen if the other person likewise also has no Twinner.
- The agents are called in to investigate a mysterious disappearance (maybe of some government employee, or maybe a DG agent checking out some kind of 'mystery spot') and find a vacuum where people from RL can be sucked into the Territories, Dreamlands, whatever. Could be tied in with the abduction idea mentioned.
- The Doppleganger: This German legend was based on those instances where someone met their Twinner. Did King say what would happen here? My guess is both would be destroyed in some sort of reality crossover-warp.
There is at least one other humanly-sentient species in the Territories. They are called Wolfs (not Wolves…there's a difference), and they, for the most part, resemble the legendary Werewolves, with a few small twists that I would suggest you find out for yourself by reading the book, which is one hell of a read anyhow.
Story Ideas:
- Cases of hypertrichosis (the Jojo The Dogface Boy disease) are caused by "crossing over" of Wolfs into our world. Hypertrichotics are actually dual-natured and are half in the Territories. Jojo The Dogface Cultist anyone?
- The agents (probably in conjunction with pre-Shan PISCES) investigate the legends of English wereewolves and "wulvers" (English werewolves are different in that they seem to be biological rather than supernatural) and find a Territories-RL crossover point.
Those are the big points. What King is doing in books like TT, The Stand, Insomnia, the Dark Tower series, The Mist, and others, is working up a universe of Many Worlds.
Clive Barker seems to be big on this idea. Books such as Cabal (the novel version of Nightbreed) and Weaveworld develop it well. One could also argue that his conception of hell (in Hellraiser II more than the first) is also sort of a parallel world.
Interestingly, in original versions of the Bible the Hebrew word used where we're all familiar with reading hell was 'sheol' which meant hidden world. Which of course, similar in sound to 'shean,' where the fairies of Ireland and Scotland lived. Plus, it seems that originally, hell wasn't the terrible place we conceive it to be, simply a parallel world.
I'm toying with the idea that the Dreamlands, maybe the Territories, Midian, all those places, and Shean and Sheol, are identical. There is evidence that the Dreamlands don't strictly exist in dreams (after all, ghouls can get there anytime through tunnels). Demons, fairies, 'Breed, whatever…they're all from the Dreamlands.
BTW, Flagg in THE STAND is very Nyarlathotep-like, IMHO. Less so in EYES OF THE DRAGON.
1) A cabal from the Territories want to clean up some places of great misery, and they find that by tacking the locations here, they have to work a +ACo-lot+ACo- less. Perhaps those places in The Territories can't be cleaned up from there at all.
Nice. A true "hell on earth" scenario.
4) A series of seemingly random deaths is actually someone from the Territories killing off his Lieutenants' Twinners, so they can travel more freely between worlds.
Interesting idea, too.
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 09:07:52 -0500
From: "Jimmie Bise, Jr."
- The Doppleganger: This German legend was based on those instances where someone met their Twinner. Did King say what would happen here? My guess is both would be destroyed in some sort of reality crossover-warp.
Actually, as King writes it, it's impossible for one person to meet his Twinner. The way it works is that, in the case of Twinners, the body doesn't travel, the mind does. In Morgan's case (which really is the only case King explains in any detail), the minds swap bodies, and one of the minds is generally the dominant one (i.e. the mind that does the Flipping).
King did go into some detail about how the Territories Morgan dealt with our world in the other body. basically, at the point of flipping, the minds "pass" each other, and off we go! Either way, it can still fit the doppleganger and changeling myths, as well as some stories of multiple personalitities and "missing time" episodes…
There is at least one other humanly-sentient species in the Territories. They are called Wolfs (not Wolves…there's a difference), and they, for the most part, resemble the legendary Werewolves, with a few small twists that I would suggest you find out for yourself by reading the book, which is one hell of a read anyhow.
- Cases of hypertrichosis (the Jojo The Dogface Boy disease) are caused by "crossing over" of Wolfs into our world. Hypertrichotics are actually dual-natured and are half in the Territories. Jojo The Dogface Cultist anyone?
I like this idea. King never explicitly states whether or not Wolfs have Twinners (though he seems to hint that no Wolf has a Twinner), but this is a cool idea!
- The agents (probably in conjunction with pre-Shan PISCES) investigate the legends of English wereewolves and "wulvers" (English werewolves are different in that they seem to be biological rather than supernatural) and find a Territories-RL crossover point.
Yep..that one works well, too!
Clive Barker seems to be big on this idea. Books such as Cabal (the novel version of Nightbreed) and Weaveworld develop it well. One could also argue that his conception of hell (in Hellraiser II more than the first) is also sort of a parallel world.
And the biggest place he develops a Dreamland type of place is in "The Great and Secret Show", where he brings in Quiddity. By the way…forget the sequel, "Everville"…ack ptui!
Interestingly, in original versions of the Bible the Hebrew word used where we're all familiar with reading hell was 'sheol' which meant hidden world. Which of course, similar in sound to 'shean,' where the fairies of Ireland and Scotland lived. Plus, it seems that originally, hell wasn't the terrible place we conceive it to be, simply a parallel world.
Well, it depends on whose definition you use. Originally (Old Testament-Biblically), Hell was always a place of punishment, but it was less a place of torment than it was in the New Testament. I won't go further into it here, 'cause I don't want to spark another religion discussion…:-)
BTW, Flagg in THE STAND is very Nyarlathotep-like, IMHO. Less so in EYES OF THE DRAGON.
And he also makes an appearance in the Dark Tower, where it appears he's not quite so bad and Nyarlathotep-py. It seems that, though he's bad for sure, King has been using him as a messenger for someone even worse, who makes a decent appearance in "Insomnia". The "Insomnia" bad guy is King's BIG-A, and Flagg is Nyarly.
Nice. A true "hell on earth" scenario.
There's a chapter in TT where Jack and his friend Wolf (Yes, a Territories Wolf…) flip from inside the bathroom of a corrupt Orphanage/Work Camp and find themselves in Hell on Earth in the form of a quarry (I can't remember what they were mining). It was one hell of a scary section, even for a jaded horror novel reader.
4) A series of seemingly random deaths is actually someone from the Territories killing off his Lieutenants' Twinners, so they can travel more freely between worlds.
Interesting idea, too.
I'm actually thinking of developing this one (and perhaps tying it in with the Fairfield Disappearance……). What if some of the people who have gone missing over the years are really in the Territories? Or what if the assasinations of some of the notable leaders in modern times has been to affect greater changes on the Territories (King again hints that this kind of thing has happened before here…)? There area all sorts of cool ideas you can spin out of this, and, to be honest, I'd live to blend the Dreamlands and the Territories, etc. I wasn't a huge fan of the Dreamlands anyhow. I always kind of thought that Lovecraft wrote his Dreamlands stories as kind of a pleasant, fairy-tale-type counter to his other stories.
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 02:40:00 +0100 (MET)
From: Andreas Melhorn
Ligotti is GOOD STUFF for cultivating a sense of the alien.
YES. The Nightmare Factory is the best book I ever read. *Highly* recommended.
JimmieBise,Jr wrote:
There are more ideas, and I'd love to hear them. I'd also love to hear what y'all think about the Many Worlds Plot and such.
I don't think that we really need even more Worlds in CoC. I mean, it can be fun, but the Dreamlands are such a diverse place, that you can put everything there. Still it is a land of dreams and dreams can be everything you like.
But events in our world can have, and probably should have, a great impact on the Dreamlands. Emotions create our dreams and so change the Dreamlands and you can use the rule that exist for Territories/Earth interaction for Dreamlands/Earth interaction as well.
It's been a while that I read the Dreamlands book, but I think there was a discription what happens, when a dream self looses his waking self. Probably someone comes to Earth and tries to kill people for his own purposes. I like the idea actually.
I never read The Dark Tower series, but why not creating a part of the Dreamlands where guns exist. It should be far off though. Is that a possibility for the Characters to bring firearms to the Dreamslands?? They enter in the Gunslinger area and then travel to their destination??
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 22:04:45 -0600 (CST)
From: Tenebrous Technologies
That take on the Dreamlands reminded me as well. Why the tech limit at all? I understand wanting to keep to the flavor of the stories, but wouldn't it be in keeping to have sections of the dreamlands that reflect some of the higher and lower asperations of man? I think anyone who pauses to consider some of the horrors of WW II could come up with some pretty horrific more modern day dreamlands…let alone more late century terrors. If Nyarlathotep had anything sort of influence in the dreamlands, I would think those sorts of places would exist to influence unwary dreamers and spread corruption. (But then again, I've always had a weakness for ol' Nyarly)
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 19:56:04 -0600 (CST)
From: Tenebrous Technologies <ten.gnilhtrae|earbenet#ten.gnilhtrae|earbenet>
I'm already working on it! Real progress will probably take place after Emerald Hammer wraps up tho'.
Welp, let me make some sense out of the notes I've been jotting, and toss them out somewhere. See if we were thinking along the same lines. First priority is typing up the 'Contagion' playtest notes from last weekend, (Had two groups of 5 both sessions, it was a good time.) and then I'll work on the Dreamlands stuff. Picked up 'Realm of Shadows' at the con, sparked a renewed intrest in Dreamlands stuff for this wayward yeti. ;)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 20:24:31 +0100 (MET)
From: Andreas Melhorn
Hmmm…anyone want to work together on a 'Millenarian Dreamlands' project with me? Sounds like there's a lot of nifty things that could be done. I'd love to bat ideas on something like that around.
Good idea, actually. I don't want to spoil the work of the MiB ;) but here is an idea that came in my mind. It should also be suitable for people who don't like the Dreamland in generel.
What about a guy who somehow is able to 'dream' modern equipment. It's a specialty of him, perhaps there is someting unique to his mind. In real life he could be a genius with eidetic memory and severe social disabilities. In his dreams he can create modern equipment that changes seconds after its creation to something a little bit less modern (the Dreamlands do that to the things). Give him a few decades and help from a person living 'full-time' in the dreamlands and he can create a whole new society. Think about knights or other medieval soldiers with revolvers or something like that. (I guess that's similiar to the Gunslinger/Black Tower theme.) After he built his small society and learned a lot about magic (he's still a genius) he can try to conquer some parts of the dreams (did I forget to mention that he is a little bit megalomaniac too??). With this background it should be possible to create a very strange little country and a even stranger army.
Probably someone likes it.
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 12:10:10 +0000
From: Juergen Hubert
There are more ideas, and I'd love to hear them. I'd also love to hear what y'all think about the Many Worlds Plot and such.
Well, I haven't read the novels in questions, but I can reccommend a good alternete earth, to be found in (who would have guessed it?) in GURPS Alternate Earths. Most of the AEs in the book are either too cliche (Dixie and Reich-5), or too silly (Gernsback), and two are borderline cases (Roma Aeterna and Ezcalli), but one world is very good: Shikaku-Mon. The changes to our world started about five hundred years ago: The Swedish Empire never fell, and the Jesuits managed to convert the whole of Japan to Christianity. In the year 2015, the world is dominated by four superpowers: The anarchistic kingdom of Brazil, Imperial Japan, which has conquered most of Asia, as well as New Zealand and parts of Western North America, the kingdom of France, which has a virtual monopoly on space travel and practically owns the moon, and the Swedish Empire, which is now ruled by a totalitarian ideology called Synarchism. All in all, it is _not_ a nice world - decadent aristocrats rule it, the ecology groans under the strain of 10 billion humans, and no one knows when another nuclear war might start that won't only nuke the UK like the last did…
But it would certainly be alien enough for visitors from our earth so that they need a lot of time to adjust, while it is still believable…