Slumberpunk discussion (archive)

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Arjun Roy wrote:

Anybody heard of a new series called Dark Matter? I haven't gotten a chance
to
actually read one of the books (I think there are two or three out by now)
but one of my friends thinks it's /very/ good. And atypical, intelligent,
and
useful (slightly) for a DG campaign. That's my friend— I haven't read them
yet.

The Dark Matter series is based on the setting of the same name for
WotC's Alternity RPG, and your friend is right - they're excellent
books, and useful for DG. The most recent one, "Of Aged Angels", has
cybernetically augmented Russian PSI spies, chaos magic, ancient
entities returning after aeons beyond, and a lost piece of alien
technology - the Holy Grail. Much of the Dark Matter material can easily
be used for DG, and they're still reasonably easy to get hold of.

Doctor TOC
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You know, not a Child Lit, but a good idea is a novel called the Blade of
Tyshalle, the sequel to Hero's Die (I guess because I haven't read it) by
Matthew Stover.

Very bad synopsis:

Basically about the interaction between some sort of another dimension where
magic works and it is sort of a 'fantasy setting' and the earth where we
(the earthlings) send over people who have camera's planted in thier heads
and the earth uses it as a type of mass-media entertainment. This novel
decribes the first 'war' between the two realms and has gods and all sorts
of wierd stuff going on. Could make for a very neat Dreamlands setting for
the near future…

David

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Now, for the supporting characters:

Christopher Walken for Adolph Lepus?
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From: "Nick Brownlow" <ten.epacsten|edinrebats#ten.epacsten|edinrebats>

Wheras I can't condone all this Harry Potter nonsense (Dave, pull

yourself together man ;)),«<

At first I ignored it, following my dictum that "If it's hyped that much, it
ain't worth reading." Then my daughter (who can only read Japanese, not
English) asked me to buy the first book for her in Japanese, so I picked up
the English version so we could read it together (I can't read
Japanese—yes, it's an interesting family situation).

I fell for it. Not terribly hard, but I did really enjoy it. Eventually I
read the next two books and liked them, only I started to suspect that the
series was petering out…it was getting repetitious. But I've just read the
4th book and was quite impresseddefinitely the best. Much more complex, a
bit darker, plus a bit of romance. As children's lit, it's really quite
goodperhaps not the best out there, but good. The hype is annoying,
though.

Anyway, my opinion of the book's quality is not on-topic heresorry. For DG
purposes, though, it would make a great Child's Dreamlands. Say you've got a
child who's a very powerful Dreamer, who takes over a corner of the DLs, and
populates it with the characters and settings from all those books she
lovesHarry Potter, Narnia, Curious George, Wonderland, The Monster at the
End of This Book. All, of course twisted in ways both good and bad. And then
your agents have to go in there for some reason…

That could be a mission just as dangerous as any other, but with a wistful,
childhood-memory feel to it at times—when it's not in *terrifying*
childhood-memory mode. It would also be a good basis for a Slumberpunk (see
Davide Mana's upcoming article in _The Black Seal_) scenario.

Philip Pullman's 'Dark Materials' trilogy comes highly recommended. A

lot like the Potter stuff, but much much darker. Northern Lights is the
first in the series (may have been printed under another title in the States
though), followed by The Subtle Knife and then The Amber Spyglass.«<

Just finished the 3rd book of that a couple of weeks ago. The first volume
is called _The Golden Compass_ in the American edition. Overall, I liked
these too, although I couldn't get into it as deeply as I like to. Part of
the problem was Pullman is really quite unsubtle about beating the reader
over the head with his philosophya philosophy I somewhat agree with, but I
still find it annoying to get whacked with it every few pages. Knocks me out
of the story. But yes, there is much to mine for DG here. The whole War in
Heaven bit would fit into a DLs setting easily, and the Subtle Knife would
make a very cool artifactbasically, it's a knife that can make Gates
between dimensions, though there's a lot more to it than that. And the
Shadows are terrifying.

BTW, there's a discussion about CS Lewis vs. Philip Pullman here:
http://www.revolutionsf.com/forum/read.php?f=9&i=148&t=148
You'll recognize a couple of names there.

Another great dark kid-lit series (well, *I* read it as a kid) is the
Earthsea books (most people think of them as a trilogy, but a 4th book came
out some time back). Gave me nightmares.

Dave

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From: moc.fsnoitulover|neergatled-renwo#moc.fsnoitulover|neergatled-renwo on behalf of Andy Robertson [ku.oc.aralc|nostreborwydna#ku.oc.aralc|nostreborwydna]
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 7:15 PM
To: moc.fsnoitulover|neergatled#moc.fsnoitulover|neergatled
Subject: Re: RE: [DG] Children's Lit

Ah. I've recommended it before. "Marianne Dreams" by Catherine Storr.

One of the first examples of a properly understood Dreamspace in popular
childrens' literature. Filmed as PAPERHOUSE.

The Glove Cleaner

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- Original Message -
From: "Dave Farnell" <pj.en.emoh.mocj|evadrepus#pj.en.emoh.mocj|evadrepus>

Another great dark kid-lit series (well, *I* read it as a kid) is the
Earthsea books (most people think of them as a trilogy, but a 4th book

came

out some time back). Gave me nightmares.

Yes indeedy. I read them in college and enjoyed them. There's not much
difference between the straightforward style of something for children and
Hemingway. ;-)

What I mined from that series is the importance of names. I think every
magic system I've written about since has included that element. If you
don't know the word, you can't think the thought. At least for left side
functions.

I've even dabbled with formulating left hemisphere\right hemisphere magic
in place of left and right hand.

Mark McFadden

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On 17 November 2001, still about two hours in the future for me here in
Charleston, "Dave Farnell" <pj.en.emoh.mocj|evadrepus#pj.en.emoh.mocj|evadrepus> said (or will say):

I haven't read it yet, myself, though 'Becca, the 10 year old daughter
of a good friend of mine, apparently is very fond of Harry Potter! (She'll
probably grow up to be a powerful Mage someday…)

I also know somebody who may not be fond of Harry… Allegedly, an
airport security guard in Philadelphia, a few weeks ago, refused to allow a
young man to board his flight. The Harry Potter book the young man was
carrying "looked suspiscious", so it was confiscated temporarily, while the
kid (who did not have a beard, and who was not wearing a black turban) was
interrogated for most of an hour, and the security man leafed through the
book and took lots of notes. The kid was eventually sent home, and, when the
inevitable call came from his (the kid's) mother, the guard insisted the kid
"was making jokes about bombs". (The kid knew better than that, and the next
call was from the parents' lawyer… I hope they throw the book at this
guard — he's giving good guys a bad name!) So be careful about trying to
take Harry Potter onto your next flight!:)

Narnia… When I was much younger, I often wished I could find a way of
really traveling there, outside of the pages of a book! (Well, with some of
my interests, even then, I suppose that should be expected…):) I've heard
rumors of a TV mini-series, but have never seen anything on TV other than an
animated version, a few years ago, of "The Lion, the Witch, and the
Wardrobe". I was very amused back around 1980, when GDW (for their RPG
Traveller) named a species of felinoid alien the "Aslan"! (Someone else in
the audience asked Marc Miller (the game designer) the question I was about
to: "Do they speak Narnian?"):) And almost no one could understand why, in
one RPG, I named my starship the "Dawn Treader"… (I think most people try
and forget the tales they read in their childhood!)

Curious George was one of my favorites, too, when I was a child!

It took me awhile to get into the Wonderland tales — I was really more
fond of Oz!

If we're going to be encountering the Seuss type beasties, let's not
forget the Cat in the Hat, or Sam-I-Am! (It is rumored that General
Fairfield's favorite breakfast was an omlet made of Green Eggs and Ham!):)

And the Road Runner and Wile E. Coyote! (Those investigators had better
be careful around these two — they do interesting things to the laws of
physics! And whatever you do, whatever heavy ordnance or gadgets you are
packing, _do not attempt to attack or capture the Road Runner_!!):)

Also, My Father's Dragon… (My mother read that to me as a bedtime
story when I was about four or five, and I still have the book itself in
storage…)

If the young Dreamer is anything like I was when I was young, the
investigators may encounter a few surprises… My childhood heroes included
Horatio Hornblower (I read my first Hornblower novel — "Hornblower and the
Hotspur" — while in the 3rd grade, and it inspired me to hunt down
technical data on sailing ships to better understand Forester's technical
terms…):), Captain Nemo, Robur, and several heroes from the Heinlien
juveniles!

Now _there_ is a new genre! Just as Jules Verne is credited with being
the "creator" of SF, and Tom Clancy of technothrillers, Davide will be
considered the "father of Slumberpunk"!:)

Michael Layne
DGGF#688
moc.liamtoh|dlareheht#moc.liamtoh|dlareheht

"'Dawn Treader'? What kind of name for an exploration ship is 'Dawn
Treader'?"
— player in a long-ago Star Trek RPG

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From: moc.fsnoitulover|neergatled-renwo#moc.fsnoitulover|neergatled-renwo on behalf of Chris Womack [ten.knilhtrae|kcamowcj#ten.knilhtrae|kcamowcj]
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 9:39 PM
To: deltagreen revolutionsf.com
Subject: Re: [DG] Children's Lit

on 11/16/01 8:07 PM, Dave Farnell at pj.en.emoh.mocj|evadrepus#pj.en.emoh.mocj|evadrepus wrote:

Another great dark kid-lit series (well, *I* read it as a kid) is the
Earthsea books (most people think of them as a trilogy, but a 4th book came
out some time back). Gave me nightmares.

Actually, LeGuin's put out a collection of Earthsea short stories (and
essays, IIRC), called appropriately enough _Tales from Earthsea_, and a
fifth novel, called _The Other Wind_ in the past year. Gotta keep up, Dave.

Okay, so I haven't actually gotten hold of either book yet, but the blurb
from the latter sounds like it ties into our thread on using children's lit
to fuel a DG DL/Slumberpunk scenario nicely: "The sorcerer Alder fears
sleep. He dreams of the land of death, of his wife who died young and longs
to return to him so much that she kissed him across the low stone wall that
separates our world from the Dry Land ‹ where the grass is withered, the
stars never move, and lovers pass without knowing each other. The dead are
pulling Alder to them at night. Through him they may free themselves and
invade Earthsea."

Gotta love the Dry Lands. Another place to look for a couple more Earthsea
short stories is in a collection LeGuin put out some years back called _The
Wind's Twelve Quarters_. One of the shorts in there is a Dry Lands tale.

As for Harry Potter, I'll agree with Dave's last remarks: good, not
fantastic, over-hyped but not necessarily over-rated; the most recent shows
real promise in making a big jump in the level of sophistication and
darkness. (Digression time: As for the casting in the film, I'll give you
Alan Rickman, but they really should've cast Nick Brimble in the role of
Hagrid. To tie this into the other pointless thread that's in progress, you
gotta use Brimble if you're looking to describe some wooly, wild-eyed chunk
of muscle for the Army of the 3rd Eye—I can just see him holding down some
squirming, frothing MP with one beefy arm and lowing that drill to his
forehead with the other…)

In all the casting about for titles to put on the shelf beside the Harry
Potter books, I'm surprised nobody else has mentioned Diana Wynne Jones'
Chrestomanci books (_Charmed Life_, _The Lives of Chrisopher Chant_, _The
Magicians of Caprona_, and _Witch Week__; Chrestomanci shorts also appear in
some of her short story collections). I've only actually read the first book
(in order of publication, not necessarily in series chronology), _Charmed
Life_, but that made quite an impression. There's one scene in which the
spectres of the young protagonist's murdered alternate selves are summoned
forth, including his first death as an infant who was (IIRC) drowned,
described as this bloated thing with a much-too-big head bobbling along on
little chubby wobbly legs. Quite the inspiration for nightmares for the
lunchbox-and-bookbag crowd, and possibly an image worth swiping for the
hypothetical DG gig we're discussing.

Chris Womack
ten.knilhtrae|kcamowcj#ten.knilhtrae|kcamowcj
Keeper of the DGML (Ret'd.)

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I don't know. Walken is… well, he's Walken… but he can't do Southern,
and Southern is integral to Lepus. I think Tommy Lee Jones is as close as
you're going to get. He's not skinny enough, and he's spent too many recent
years being vulnerable underneath the gruff, but if he can switch that
around he could make it work. Agent "K" is a surly tough guy with a soft
spot; Lepus is all smiles and murder. Lepus is Delta Green if it didn't
give a shit. If TLJ got plumb mad-dog mean and happy about it, he'd be
right.

Shane Ivey
Producer, RevolutionSF
http://www.revolutionsf.com/

-Original Message-

Now, for the supporting characters:

Christopher Walken for Adolph Lepus?

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At 10:50 PM 11/16/2001 -0600, Shane Ivey wrote:

Jones is just too damn virtuous (though Jones circa '70s might fit) and
you're right, Walken can't do Southern.

http://us.imdb.com/Name?Patton,+Will

If you want Lepus, look know further than Will Patton. That man *is*
Lepus. All he needs is the gold teeth and a pair of lifts, he's good to go.

As for Alphonse, I'm partial to Philip Baker Hall. He's about the right
age, got the swarthy look, and while he might not be as husky as the
description, he's got the bags underneath the eyes that could only be
earned by a man that's seen the kind of horrors that Alphonse has.

http://us.imdb.com/Name?Hall,+Philip+Baker

Gil

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From: moc.fsnoitulover|neergatled-renwo#moc.fsnoitulover|neergatled-renwo on behalf of ialdaloboth *genzundheit!* [moc.liamtoh|htoboladlai#moc.liamtoh|htoboladlai]
Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2001 1:24 AM
To: moc.fsnoitulover|neergatled#moc.fsnoitulover|neergatled
Subject: Re: [DG] Casting Call

I saw tom baker as Prof Dumbledore.

DG… er… Tom Sizemore goes good with any 'heavy' role, and he can play
fucked up fairly well when he wants to.

I go great with milk.

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- Original Message -
From: "Gil Trevizo" <moc.gnirpsdnim|cigolyrruf#moc.gnirpsdnim|cigolyrruf>

If you want Lepus, look know further than Will Patton. That man *is*
Lepus. All he needs is the gold teeth and a pair of lifts, he's good to

go.

Not a bad choice. He's not quite big enough, but then Alan Ladd was rather
small. But he could deliver the performance.

As for Alphonse, I'm partial to Philip Baker Hall. He's about the right
age, got the swarthy look, and while he might not be as husky as the
description, he's got the bags underneath the eyes that could only be
earned by a man that's seen the kind of horrors that Alphonse has.

After seeing 'From Hell' my mind traveled back to 'Cracker.' I'm getting
partial to Robbie Coltrane as Alphonse.
Check the selection of pics at
http://images.google.com/images?q=Robbie+Coltrane&hl=en for the looks,
'Cracker' for the angst and 'From Hell' for his management style. I don't
doubt that he could be as American as Gary Oldman.

Mark McFadden

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From: moc.fsnoitulover|neergatled-renwo#moc.fsnoitulover|neergatled-renwo on behalf of ialdaloboth *genzundheit!* [moc.liamtoh|htoboladlai#moc.liamtoh|htoboladlai]
Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2001 1:43 AM
To: moc.fsnoitulover|neergatled#moc.fsnoitulover|neergatled
Subject: RE: [DG] Children's Lit

Wrinkle in Time and its sequels

Some of the Hardy Boys, both before and after Dixon's death

Van Alesburg (sp)'s stuff. He did one some time ago that dealt with pictures
in a house and some of them were bang-on.

Dr. Seuss has his moments (what is the occult signifigance of the cat in the
hat?)

Not quite children's 'lit,' but I had a running theory about Beavis and
Butthead's 'the great cornholio' being Beavis possessed by one of the
lesser-known loa. The God of Feces did appear in a cloud in an earlier
episode, so there are precidents for divine intervention.

Jojo Blows Off the Goat by William Impossible, which hasn't been written yet
and probably never will, since William Impossible's head is in my fucking
refrigerator and will stay there until he stops talking like a bug.

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From: moc.fsnoitulover|neergatled-renwo#moc.fsnoitulover|neergatled-renwo on behalf of Davide Mana [ti.nit|ottesnop.anilehcim#ti.nit|ottesnop.anilehcim]
Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2001 4:24 AM
To: moc.fsnoitulover|neergatled#moc.fsnoitulover|neergatled
Subject: Slumberpunk correction [was [DG] Children's Lit]

Greetings.

Sorry, Dave - excellent idea, but wrong reference.
My piece about Slumberpunk was in the last "Whisperer".
The Black Seal powers that be are too smart to allow me a free hand in the
collective subconscious ;>
But I'm happy to see the definition is catching.

Incidentally, almost time for another story, I think.
God knows I've had quite some weird dreams lately - apart for the usual
return of a certain recurring character and locations (as usual, when I'm
under stress), there was a bit about a sitting for the Certamen
Pedemontanum in which I was asked by a highly aggressive referee to
translate from Latin a terribly convoluted piece about the origins and
traditions of the Savoia Cavalleria horse guards.
Crazy.
Now I'm carefully checking sources, as I can remember a fair chunk of the
text (hey, I did translate it, right?), and, hell, it's proper Latin - if
clearly very late in structure and extremely nasty - lots of passive verbs
and stupid stuff the Romans never used.
Sounds exactly as the kind of fake thing someone would have put in a 19th
century textbook to torment students and impress them with the past glories
of the royal house.
Did my brain make up a fake 19th century text?
Or did I dream an actual document I'm pretty sure I never read?
Both alternatives are pretty weird.

Davide Mana
started waking up in a sweat again
Torino, Italy

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John Tynes once confided that his inspiration for Lepus was Willem Dafoe's
role in Lynch's "Wild at Heart."

As for me, I was thinking of Leo Mackern when I dreamed up Alphonse, although
Wilfred Brimley would do in a pinch.

A. Scott Glancy, President TCCorp
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From: moc.fsnoitulover|neergatled-renwo#moc.fsnoitulover|neergatled-renwo on behalf of Lee Williams [gro.dnuorgnomed|smailliweel#gro.dnuorgnomed|smailliweel]
Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2001 5:55 AM
To: moc.fsnoitulover|neergatled#moc.fsnoitulover|neergatled
Subject: Re: RE: [DG] Children's Lit

/lurk off/

- Original Message -
From: Michael Layne <moc.liamtoh|dlareheht#moc.liamtoh|dlareheht>
To: <moc.fsnoitulover|neergatled#moc.fsnoitulover|neergatled>
Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2001 3:28 AM
Subject: Re: RE: [DG] Children's Lit

Narnia… When I was much younger, I often wished I could find a way

really traveling there, outside of the pages of a book! (Well, with some

my interests, even then, I suppose that should be expected…):) I've

heard

rumors of a TV mini-series, but have never seen anything on TV other than

animated version, a few years ago, of "The Lion, the Witch, and the
Wardrobe". >

Didn't the BBC do the Chronicles of Narnia as a Sunday afternoon serial
sometime back in the late Eighties? Those might be avaialable on video
somewhere.
There again I might have dreamed it all…

Lee Williams
ICQ 25628876
Associate Editor - DEMONGROUND: Reflections of a Darker Future
http://www.demonground.org
gro.dnuorgnomed|smailliweel#gro.dnuorgnomed|smailliweel

/lurk ON/

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From: moc.fsnoitulover|neergatled-renwo#moc.fsnoitulover|neergatled-renwo on behalf of Andy Robertson [ku.oc.aralc|nostreborwydna#ku.oc.aralc|nostreborwydna]
Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2001 5:48 AM
To: moc.fsnoitulover|neergatled#moc.fsnoitulover|neergatled
Subject: Re: RE: [DG] Children's Lit

Yeah. My chldren love them. They are available on AMAZON in VHS. But I
don't feel this adaptation captures much of the religious feeling of the
original.

And, as I doubt I need to say, the religious message of the original, while
it is completely a part of the story, is *not* a Lovecraftian one. It is
explicitly and powerfully anti-Lovecraft. It's a Christian, or more
succinctly, a Catholic, one.

The Glove Cleaner

- Original Message -
From: "Lee Williams" <gro.dnuorgnomed|smailliweel#gro.dnuorgnomed|smailliweel>

Didn't the BBC do the Chronicles of Narnia as a Sunday afternoon serial
sometime back in the late Eighties? Those might be avaialable on video
somewhere.
There again I might have dreamed it all…

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In message <moc.fsnoitulover|enahs.AAHENHEMCHPFBGGEELLIEBOIBBDN#moc.fsnoitulover|enahs.AAHENHEMCHPFBGGEELLIEBOIBBDN>, Shane
Ivey <moc.fsnoitulover|enahs#moc.fsnoitulover|enahs> writes

I always picture Lee Van Cleef "Ol' Angel-Eyes" as Lepus.

—
Julian Breen
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«I'm getting partial to Robbie Coltrane as Alphonse.»
[snip]
«I don't doubt that he could be as American as Gary Oldman.»

You obviously never caught 'The Bogie Man' (although in all fairness he was playing a Scotsman who only *thought* he was Humphrey Bogart, so perhaps he was hamming it up on purpose…).

I'm with Glancy - Leo McKern is who I see whenever anyone mentions Alphonse.
—

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LORD OF THE RINGS?

You can't dodge it.

Not superficially Lovecraftian, no. But … I mean, it's a myth,
nearly a religion for our time. And you wait till the films come out.

Well, what do people think?

The Glove Cleaner

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From: moc.fsnoitulover|neergatled-renwo#moc.fsnoitulover|neergatled-renwo on behalf of Nick Brownlow [ten.epacsten|edinrebats#ten.epacsten|edinrebats]
Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2001 6:33 AM
To: moc.fsnoitulover|neergatled#moc.fsnoitulover|neergatled
Subject: RE: Re: RE: [DG] Children's Lit

«I fell for it. Not terribly hard, but I did really enjoy it.»
[snip]
«The hype is annoying, though.»

Yes, I'm kind of hoping that PISCES will hurry up and locate this Hogswart's place and send in the SAS. I kind of like the sound of 'Harry Potter and the Insects from Shaggai'.
—

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Cheers.

The Glove Cleaner rattled my chain and wrote….

Mixed feelings is my byword when LOTR is concerned.

The book is good (should have read it three times, both in Italian and
English), and a feat of world-building etc etc etc.
Fact is, I fear I've outgrown it, and there's fantasy books that, while
being less ambitious, I do like much better.
So sue me.

The roleplaying game was too damn complicated.

About the movie, mixed feelings again - I'm pretty eager to catch it as I'd
be eager to catch any major fantasy movie. The little I saw was pretty
impressive in terms of effects and stuff, and they can't have messed with
the story-line that much.
My fear is, as usual, the fans.
Lotries as trekkies, if you catch my drift: people that will run around in
silly clothes and rubber pointy ears, learning Elvish grammar, buttonholing
you to explain that the stuff that guy Dunsany wrote were basically cheap
rip-offs of Tolkien's, and all the rest sucks, and no I did never read
anything else but LOTR is the greatest.

You know what I'm taliking about.
"Science Fiction" is already synonymous with "Star Trek" for the public at
large.
I'd hate to see "Fantasy" turned into a subgenre of Tolkien's donnish
ramblings.
And I'm scared as hell at the merchandise and spinoffs.

As for Mythos possibilities, I generally give LOTR a reading time of about
1 month and a SAN loss of 1d4.
No spells acquired, but certainly traces of derangement, and the unnerving
habit of drastically separating Good and Evil.
1d8 SAN loss if you actually learn speaking Qenia or Sindarin.
+2 Cthulhu Mythos - you understand Detail is no guarantee of Reality (and
should read Dick at this point, only most Lotries won't).

Davide Mana
Torino, Italy

PS - and then LOTR is obviously a Star Trek rip-off. Or the other way around.

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From: moc.fsnoitulover|neergatled-renwo#moc.fsnoitulover|neergatled-renwo on behalf of ialdaloboth *genzundheit!* [moc.liamtoh|htoboladlai#moc.liamtoh|htoboladlai]
Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2001 6:59 AM
To: moc.fsnoitulover|neergatled#moc.fsnoitulover|neergatled
Subject: Re: RE: [DG] Children's Lit

> Didn't the BBC do the Chronicles of Narnia as a Sunday afternoon serial
> sometime back in the late Eighties?

I'm not sure if they were BBC, but I remember one of them. Tom Baker played
"puddleglum."

And I'll echo the standard info - CS Lewis' Narnia books were very
christian. They came from the standpoint that there was good and evil in the
world, and you were either on one side or the other with no grey.

I'm not a Catholic (though I play one on TV) but I have to hand it to the
man for writing in that style. There's a reason his books are considered
classics.

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I'm not sure who he'd be, but Daniel Von Bargen … a beefy older guy, who
can do evil real easy (or good, I think)

Was in Lord of Illusions as Nix (the evil undead guy), in the Postman, and
in loooots of other things.

-=Will

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I know this has been said before, but frankly, and forgive me those of you
who are deeply faithful, but isn't religion in itself slightly creepy? I
mean, think of it, generations of mankind conditioned to believe in
something larger, older, greater, more powerful than themselves, some'one'
who's coming soon to cleanse the earth, and certain people shall survive in
a paradise.

Who's paradise? All is just a veneer of whitewash to lull the masses for
when the GOOs come back they can have an almost willing population. It's
been said they're above good and evil but that doesnt' mean they can't USE
the simple concepts for subjugation.

They got all the bases covered!

I loved CS Lewis's books. Not only the narnia stuff, but also the
perelandra stuff. Yet, they were oddly disquieting…..

and as for children, Dreamland and Carcosa.. and I know this has been said
before - they are the richest source for the stuff in there - dunno about
you, but I would NOT want to meet the stuff they see on the telly in any of
my Dreamland quests! (Using Blue of Blue's Clues as a bonny little blue pup
who tries to continuously draw you away from the path to play with you…..)

okay, it's too early in the morning for me and I'm going back to bed. ciao.

Oh, and wish me a happy b'day, y'all, I'm a year older and none the wiser..
LOL!

nana nervy

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I know this has been said before, but frankly, and forgive me those of you
who are deeply faithful, but isn't religion in itself slightly creepy? I
mean, think of it, generations of mankind conditioned to believe in
something larger, older, greater, more powerful than themselves, some'one'
who's coming soon to cleanse the earth, and certain people shall
survive in
a paradise.

Taking this away from the Western religious tradition, it is *equally*
creepy for the very overgeneralized Eastern religious traditions desire to
untie with the god-head.

Or the Daoist 'be one with nature and live forever'

<g>

Who's paradise? All is just a veneer of whitewash to lull the masses for
when the GOOs come back they can have an almost willing population. It's
been said they're above good and evil but that doesnt' mean they can't USE
the simple concepts for subjugation.
They got all the bases covered!
I loved CS Lewis's books. Not only the narnia stuff, but also the
perelandra stuff. Yet, they were oddly disquieting…..

Doh! Forgot about the Peralandia books… Excellent for an PISCES campaign.

and as for children, Dreamland and Carcosa.. and I know this has been said
before - they are the richest source for the stuff in there - dunno about
you, but I would NOT want to meet the stuff they see on the telly
in any of
my Dreamland quests! (Using Blue of Blue's Clues as a bonny
little blue pup
who tries to continuously draw you away from the path to play
with you…..)

Television:

Johnny Quest? Some of the wierd Japanese Live Action that I remember from my
childhood (Spectreman IIRC…) Or how about the figures from Sesame
Street???

Heck, the Teletubbies or Barney should be worth a little San loss right of
the bat.

Oh, and wish me a happy b'day, y'all, I'm a year older and none
the wiser..
LOL!

It doesn't change, you just get better at covering up the lack <g>

David

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From: moc.fsnoitulover|neergatled-renwo#moc.fsnoitulover|neergatled-renwo on behalf of Berin Kinsman [moc.raebelcnu|neergatled#moc.raebelcnu|neergatled]
Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2001 10:10 AM
To: moc.fsnoitulover|neergatled#moc.fsnoitulover|neergatled
Subject: [DG] CNN: Sitcom for Great Old Ones

Okay, this is a breaking story so no one can say "oh, yeah, we talked about this two years ago…" :)

This guy got the busiest airport in the world evacuated and shut down, and delayed flights across the country for three hours. Why? Because this jerk didn't want to miss a football game.

I can just hear his inner monologue: "Me me me, it's all about me. And football. Me and football."

And I can see Nyarlathotep kicked back with his feet on the coffee table, munching popcorn and watching CNN, chuckling to himself about how the stupid humans just make it far too easy.

-b.

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- Original Message -
From: "Nerva Vels" <ten.nozirev|somar.avren#ten.nozirev|somar.avren>

I know this has been said before, but frankly, and forgive me those of you
who are deeply faithful, but isn't religion in itself slightly creepy? I
mean, think of it, generations of mankind conditioned to believe in
something larger, older, greater, more powerful than themselves, some'one'
who's coming soon to cleanse the earth, and certain people shall survive

a paradise.

Nervy, I'm so glad it was you that brought this up. I still cringe about
some thoughtless comments I made awhile ago.

Now let's see how many people I can alienate with some thoughtful comments.
;-)

Bill Hicks once questioned the wisdom of considering a Christian (I was
going to use the term "devout", but that would send crossed signals) to be a
good choice for President. Wouldn't you want someone who *doesn't* believe
in an afterlife with his finger on The Button? Someone who *doesn't* think
Armageddon is inevitable?

The dominant faiths in American politics (or politicians) teach that trying
to make a better world is futile, the Apocalypse is predestined. No heaven
on Earth until *after* the carnage. There doesn't seem to be much incentive
for delaying the inevitable, especially for those sure they will disappear
in the blink of an eye when the going gets rough.

Suicide had to become a mortal sin to keep the serfs from opting out of
their short brutish lives. The heavenly carrot required a hellish stick to
keep the kine treading the grain. Of course, that was back when destroying
all life on Earth wasn't within the grasp of mortals.

Who's paradise? All is just a veneer of whitewash to lull the masses for
when the GOOs come back they can have an almost willing population. It's
been said they're above good and evil but that doesnt' mean they can't USE
the simple concepts for subjugation.

If the Toetapper can appear as Frederick the Great to counsel Hitler, and
as a transcendant Hitler to counsel the Triumvirate, it doesn't seem
farfetched to imagine a few other masks he could wear while influencing
events. Islamic scholars with sanity intact wonder how the Koran could be so
misinterpreted that terrorism can be justified. Why does the KKK leave
burning crosses?

I loved CS Lewis's books. Not only the narnia stuff, but also the
perelandra stuff. Yet, they were oddly disquieting…..

His depiction of pure evil fascinated me when I read them.

"Ransom."
"Ransom."
"Ransom."
"Ransom."
"What?"
"Nothing."

Oh, and wish me a happy b'day, y'all, I'm a year older and none the

wiser..

LOL!

Happy Bidet! Ba dum ching.

Mark McFadden

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Okay… the separation of church and state part, because some consider witchcraft a religion, is what blew my mind in the story below. That, and the cult-leader-like power local radio personalities have over communities.

***

FARGO, N.D. (Reuters) - A witchcraft controversy brewing in a North Dakota town forced a local school to cancel a field trip to a screening of the new Harry Potter movie Friday.

About 100 students from Agassiz Middle School in Fargo were slated to attend the opening day of the widely anticipated movie, “Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone,” which revolves around the adventures of a young wizard in a world of nonmagical mortals known as muggles.

All the students, mainly aged between 12 and 15, had parental permission to attend the trip to a local movie house during school hours.

But a few concerned parents and one local radio personality successfully killed the trip after raising concerns about the movie's depiction of witchcraft.

The fact that some consider witchcraft a religion, the protesters said, meant that the school-led trip to the movie theater would constitute a violation of the separation of church and state and possibly lead to legal action.

“It's a little bizarre,” said Fargo School Superintendent David Flowers, who supported the field trip. “We believe that we were on firm ground in letting the kids go. But (the school) made the decision … that they would just as soon not be embroiled in a controversy.”

Meanwhile in Memphis at least two Catholic schools said they were keeping the series of “Harry Potter” books by author J.K. Rowling out of their libraries because of the witches and wizardry content.

—- ten.epacsten|edinrebats#ten.epacsten|edinrebats (Nick Brownlow) wrote:

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> I loved CS Lewis's books. Not only the narnia stuff, but also the
> perelandra stuff. Yet, they were oddly disquieting…..
His depiction of pure evil fascinated me when I read them.
"Ransom."
"Ransom."
"Ransom."
"Ransom."
"What?"
"Nothing."

I found this fascinating and inspiring, myself. Evil that just was whatever
it had to be.

The devil plucked the legs off of small animals and other innocent beings in
Venus, which was in a state of grace. Long story.
The Devil was tempting this woman, and being perfectly charming and sweet
and intelligent to her.
Ransom told the devil 'you can't fool me'. The devil didn't bother. It just
… tormented him. It couldn't attack him without being obvious, so it
just… bugged him.
It was elemental evil that would be childish or animalistic or suave or
whatever… whatever it needed to be to accomplish evil.

I can't possibly capture the feeling it evoked, but it's great reading.

-=Will

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On Sat, 17 Nov 2001 08:31:57 -0800, The Lizard King wrote:

Now let's see how many people I can alienate with some thoughtful
The dominant faiths in American politics (or politicians) teach

Whoa, whoa, whoa! You're alienating me and I'm a cheerful agnostic!
You have failed to grasp an important distinction between pre-and
post-millenarian strains in Protestant thought. Many Xians believe
that Christ will reign on earth for 1000 years or so, and everything
will grand, and *then* will come the judgement. And of course many
believers do *not* think the end times are right around the corner,
or at least confess that they don't know when they'll be. It's just
the raving James Watt types you characterize above that get all the
press.

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On Wed, 14 Nov 2001 09:51:29 -0000, Andy Robertson wrote:

"D" in Modern Political Philosophy, Mr. Robertson. What you're
proposing is nothing new. It's called "class consciousness," and no
one who has given it any thought has failed to notice that it's the
upper classes that developed it first, have held onto it through the
putative "democratization" of the west post WWII, and continue to
develop and maintain it. However, I'd argue that it was at it's full
flower a hundred years ago.

—
Jeff Ewing, ten.sig|epjbma#ten.sig|epjbma on 11/17/2001

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Read "The Lemonade Trick" ; it will probably be at the local library and
can be read at one sitting. I defy you not to think of amphetamines or
cocaine as the active ingredient in most cases, with some hints
of Electric
Kool-Aid at the school dance.

Go on, what occured there?
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You know, not a Child Lit, but a good idea is a novel called the Blade of
Tyshalle, the sequel to Hero's Die (I guess because I haven't read it) by
Matthew Stover.
Very bad synopsis:
Basically about the interaction between some sort of another
dimension where
magic works and it is sort of a 'fantasy setting' and the earth where we
(the earthlings) send over people who have camera's planted in thier heads
and the earth uses it as a type of mass-media entertainment. This novel
decribes the first 'war' between the two realms and has gods and all sorts
of wierd stuff going on. Could make for a very neat Dreamlands setting for
the near future…

There was a good book, I think a trilogy, that I read in high school. I
think the first volume was called Godslayer. Basically it was an adaptation
of Norse myth with a twist — a young soldier in Vietnam is, at the moment
of his death, transported back to the Norse time. This was the work of one
of the good gods, I forget which.

My synopsis looks stupid upon reading it over but the book was actually very
good.

Here's the link to amazon but it's really not of much more use.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0886773725/qid=1006017810/sr=8-4/ref=
sr_8_3_4/107-9274574-5256509

The thing I've noticed in my time of reading is that I've gotten a bit more
cynical about badly written books and the good ones can look just like the
bad ones on the outside. I have less time to read now that I'm older and I
am much more annoyed when I run into a crappy book, it's a thief of time
from more deserving books.

The other thing that's sad is how books just go out of print, forgotten.
When I first started reading I didn't really have a sense of time for the
books, they were simply there when I became intrested. Looking back it's
scary to see how books I tresured are now forgotten in the libraries. It's
sort of like when video stores became popular, the collection of movies
could be counted on to be there; the supermans, the rocky's, campy but fun
comedies and horror movies. Now you have to go to non-blockbusters to find
those.

Well, enough of that.

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