"The Daemon Sultan" is a being that defies description. It dwells beyond space and time at the center of the universe, where it is attended by mindless piping planet/gods. It is described as both blind and idiotic, a "monstrous nuclear chaos." Nyarlathotep is its messenger, heart and soul.
Some writers have suggested that there is a connection between Azathoth and the explosive power of nuclear weapons. Some have even suggested that splitting the atom is actually just a small portion of Azathoth appearing in that location for a split second.
Azathoth has no cults among humans, and few worshipers. Those who do worship him are quite mad, or seeking a way beyond the cutting edge of physics and mathematics. It does have a large number of worshipers among the Shan, however.
This discussion actually includes both Azathoth and Yog-Sothoth. Please divide them.
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Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:02:14 +1300 (NZDT)
From: Svend Andersen
[This originally went to moc.enrutcon|neergatled#moc.enrutcon|neergatled with nary a whisper of complaint - any idea who they are?]
Can anyone give me a reference for where Azathoth is referred to as manifesting in atomic explosions? I have read (on this list) about the Shan's worship at their atomic power piles, but I've also read a different POV…
"That last amorphous blight of nethermost confusion which blasphemes and bubbles at the center of all infinity…"
- H.P.L.
Someone on alt.horror.cthuhlu (I think) suggested, many years ago that Azathoth was 'actually' the giant black hole in the center of the galaxy. This made sense in that it tied in the circling pipers, the all-devouring aspect, his position at the center of the 'universe', and the very structure of the local stars etc. is influenced by his manifestation. (Obviously, Azathoth isn't 'just' a singularity, any more than we are chemically-tainted water sacks - what he's made of isn't what he *is*. :)
Now, the idea of a in-some-sense sentient, actively malevolent black hole is quite cool; but I think the original idea aimed too low. There is, out past a large cloud of dust that blocks out view, a large mass around which a large number of galaxies in our neighborhood are rotating.
Now what if the Great Attractor, as it is called, is actually the main physical manifestation of Azathoth in our universe, and the black-hole centers in each of the galaxies are the manifestations of the pipers, sending out pulses of mindless eldritch energy through the cosmic ether?
ObDG: Firstly, Shan may be more interested in those branches of particle physics that hint at creating mini black-holes… and any such research may be an equivalent to the appropriate "Summon" spell. :) Indeed, anyone extensively involved in theoretical singularity study may need to have a close eye kept on them - Stephen Hawking as a closet "cult" leader, anyone? :)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 19:46:29 -0500 (EST)
From: "Andrew D. Gable"
Can anyone give me a reference for where Azathoth is referred to as manifesting in atomic explosions? I have read (on this list) about the Shan's worship at their atomic power piles, but I've also read a different POV…
References I can't provide, but the concept probably arises from his nature. Seething nuclear chaos and all. Although you're correct in assuming nuclear may mean central in his case, rather than what we think of as nuclear.
Now, the idea of a in-some-sense sentient, actively malevolent black hole is quite cool; but I think the original idea aimed too low.
Ooh! Seeds of a rather nasty 'Event Horizon' scenario. Was the spaceship in not hell, but the Court of Azathoth? Remember also that the Event Horizon utilized a portable wormhole for easy travel. Maybe here we have an unfortunate side-effect of a screw-up with one of those experimental aircraft at Area 51…
And the picture of Stephen Hawking being a cult leader is pretty funny. Maybe he's a member of the Cult of Transcendence, trying to figure out a way to reach the Court of Azathoth.
NOTE TO SELF: Must go work on this scenario.
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 10:25:55 -0500
From: Graeme Price
Now, the idea of a in-some-sense sentient, actively malevolent black hole is quite cool; but I think the original idea aimed too low. There is, out past a large cloud of dust that blocks out view, a large mass around which a large number of galaxies in our neighborhood are rotating. Now what if the Great Attractor, as it is called, is actually the main physical manifestation of Azathoth in our universe, and the black-hole centers in each of the galaxies are the manifestations of the pipers, sending out pulses of mindless eldritch energy through the cosmic ether?
Ever read the excellent little science fiction ditty "The Black Cloud" by Fred Hoyle (Brit cosmologist and champion of lost causes everywhere… notably the Steady State theory of the universe, but I digress)? Sentient cloud of black dust moving through the solar system and causing all sorts of problems re. blocking out sunlight. Black Cloud as a servant of Azathoth - probably not (in the book it was far too friendly by half). Azathoth as a giant black hole? Maybe. My physics is pretty rusty, but there would certainly be some space-time implications for that. What about stars though - surely these would fit the "seething nuclear chaos" moniker a little better than black holes? Anyway, just a thought.
ObDG: Firstly, Shan may be more interested in those branches of particle physics that hint at creating mini black-holes… and any such research may be an equivalent to the appropriate "Summon" spell. :) Indeed, anyone extensively involved in theoretical singularity study may need to have a close eye kept on them - Stephen Hawking as a closet "cult" leader, anyone? :)
One suspects that you are closer to the truth than you think here. Maybe not Hawking (too obvious), but certainly the Shan would be likely to have their fingers in all sorts of nuclear research type pies. Joint European Torus - definitely. Aldermaston, Dounreay, Sellafield, Hinkely B, Harwell… need I continue.
ObDG: How may people were aware that one of the new US nuclear weapons fabrication plants, The Savannah River Site in (hang on, which side of the river is it?)… er, South Carolina has recently changed hands. It's now owned by the Westinghouse corporate partnership, which includes a significant contribution from British Nuclear Fuels Limited. SRS is currently in the process of competing for a huge government plutonium enriching project (and the local epople actually want it there as it means lots of new jobs!). Now BNFL is _bound_ to have been infiltrated by the Shan…. This is great; it means that there may well be Shans building nukes not 15 miles from where I am now sitting. Now where did I put that auger?
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 10:10:18 +1300 (NZDT)
From: Svend Andersen
Stephen Hawking as a closet "cult" leader, anyone? :)
One suspects that you are closer to the truth than you think here. Maybe not Hawking (too obvious), but certainly the Shan would be likely to have their fingers in all sorts of nuclear research type pies. Joint European Torus - definitely. Aldermaston, Dounreay, Sellafield, Hinkely B, Harwell… need I continue.
Well, Hawking *has* done quite a bit of musing about God… what if, for some reason, his unusual state made him an unsuitable host for Shan? He would still be invaluable to them, as a possible ticket off this mud ball; what if you were as intelligent as he is, but as dependent on technology, and you gradually noticed that the people around you had… "changed". For my pick, this is why he threw over his first wife for his nurse; of course, the reason that *she* didn't change is because she was already under control when he met her…
There's also the prospect of "Hawking as Elvis" - the inadvertant leader of a cult, rarely meeting its members, and quite possibly not knowing its existence. >:) And as for any DG agents who raid Hawking's house on the grounds of all these cult haunts they've found with shrines to him… oh dear, oh dear… >:)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 10:59:10 +0000 (GMT)
From: David Clements
Azathoth is the "seething nuclear chaos" sounds more like the quantum mechanical vacuum than a singularity or cosmological structure. The current thoughts are that, at the smallest scale, the vacuum itself is a seething mess of creation and destruction of virtual particles, wormholes and maybe even whole universes that appear for an undetectable moment and then disappear. If that seething mess could have a malign sentience, Azathoth would fit the bill very well.
MiB (IIRC) then said:
The sentience was not actually an important point - just me going a little over the top. A 'malign non-sentience' would do just as well for Azathoth. The coterminous aspect of Yog-Sothoth is certain explained this way.
But this brings up an interesting point. Quantum mechanics is full of odd dualities - wave/particle being perhaps the best known. Could it be that Azathoth and Yog-Sothoth are *both* aspects of the quantum vacuum, with Yoggy being a more intelligent aspect?
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 12:38:36 +0000 (GMT)
From: David Clements
Interesting thoughts on the nature of Azathoth…
wrt. the Great Attractor, it seems the latest astronomical data suggests that the GA isn't as great as we thought it was. It seems its not attracting things from all around, but is instead itself being pulled towards something bigger and further away known as the Shapley Concentration (IIRC). Anyone interested I can get paper references for.
Meanwhile though, on the nuclear and subatomic scale, the comment that Azathoth is the "seething nuclear chaos" sounds more like the quantum mechanical vacuum than a singularity or cosmological structure. The current thoughts are that, at the smallest scale, the vacuum itself is a seething mess of creation and destruction of virtual particles, wormholes and maybe even whole universes that appear for an undetectable moment and then disappear. If that seething mess could have a malign sentience, Azathoth would fit the bill very well.
And this might lead to the veneration of fission, fusion etc. since they're getting closer to Azathoth's scale and, in fact, by converting some real mass into energy, might be interpreted as creating more 'empty space' to be filled by the Cthulhoid vacuum.
Its an interesting step from there to the researches of theoretical physicists who are currently having serious problems understanding the vacuum. One might expect some of them to go mad as they discover the True Horror, and thence become cultists…
And what about the experiments at CERN and elsewhere. Maybe something like MJ-12 is working behind the scenes there?
Hmmm - maybe I should be glad I went into astrophysics and not particle physics.
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 19:28:23 -0500 (EST)
From: The Man in Black
Azathoth is the "seething nuclear chaos" sounds more like the quantum mechanical vacuum than a singularity or cosmological structure. The current thoughts are that, at the smallest scale, the vacuum itself is a seething mess of creation and destruction of virtual particles, wormholes and maybe even whole universes that appear for an undetectable moment and then disappear. If that seething mess could have a malign sentience, Azathoth would fit the bill very well.
This sounds more like YOG-SOTHOTH, who is sentient and co-terminus with all time and space; than AZATHOTH, who is a blind idiot god (INT 0), and not sentient at all (supposedly).
From: "Christopher Williams"
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 17:20:32 BST
The MiB said:
This sounds more like YOG-SOTHOTH, who is sentient and co-terminous with all time and space; than AZATHOTH, who is a blind idiot god (INT 0), and not sentient at all (supposedly).
Anyone see a connection between AzaThoth and Yog-SoThoth? IIRC according to the pseudo translation in CoC, Azathoth means "power of Thoth" and Yog-Sothoth is a corruption of "Yaj Ash Shuthath", meaning "Strange/Ancient Aeons/ Times/ Ones" . Hmmm…I seem to remember Cthulhu's name is pretty much the same wherever you go, too. Ash Shuthath = Azathoth? Twins perhaps, one got the looks, the other got the brains?
From: Janusz A. Urbanowicz
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 12:49:45 +0100 (CET)
This sounds more like YOG-SOTHOTH, who is sentient and co-terminous with all time and space; than AZATHOTH, who is a blind idiot god (INT 0), and not sentient at all (supposedly).
I don't think any single quantum process could be sentient, IMHO the quantum-mess of vacuum fits nicely the description of Big A. But Y-S - master of time and space - that's the one who could be in the Black Holes Time stops working there and lots of weird space-related things happen.
Alex (a year of quantum mechanics I passed, hard to believe..)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 12:54:00 -0800
From: Mark McFadden
Ash Shuthath = Azathoth? Twins perhaps, one got the looks, the other got the brains?
Well, it's plain to see ye've never spent hours on yer knees contemplating the Taoish trifurcate mysteries of the Trinity. Two aspects o' the same stark truth, wi' Nyarly their only begotten son. Robert Oppenheimer knew. That's why the test was named Trinity.