Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 17:37:58 +0200
From: Morten Kjeldseth Pettersen
I've managed to compile some information about the U.S. Federal system, but since I'm not a U.S. citizen some parts of the system escapes me.
What I'm wondering about is whether U.S. Attorneys are merely prosecutors or can they also act as investigators? To this I haven't got a clue. Any help on this and the federal system in general would be much appreciated.
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 12:49:40 EDT
From: SteveL1979
US Attorneys do not themselves act as investigators, but they often have investigators on staff. They also, of course, have federal law enforcement — the FBI, ATF, US Marshals, etc. — to do the investigating for them (just like a local DA has the local police).
Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 13:49:51 -0400
From: Viktor Haag
One of the issues that seems to make a great plot device on "legal-drama" TV is the matter of jurisdiction for enforcing the law.
For example, I understand that Kidnapping is considered to fall under the Federal jurisdiction, and therefore the local FBI agents have jursidiction over the local law enforcement boys.
The DG book gives a brief list of the sorts of crimes that Fibbies consider their turf, but little indication of how these jurisdicational matters are supposed to be handled.
Anyone from the American contingent care to give a brief precis?
Perhaps it would help if I revealed what I had in mind here…
I'm working on a scenario wherein MJ12 is shipping some sensitive cargo on a standard military transport. What's supposed to be in the truck? Oh, I don't know, rocket parts, M16s, ammunition boxes, land-mines — doesn't really matter, I don't think. What *does* matter is what's *really* in the truck: several sealed containers containing dangerous organic material of a genetically questionable nature, if you know what I mean (and I think that you do)…
Now, suppose some local militia outfit were to hear about this shipment, and decide to hijack it. So, Billy McBob and his cronies hold up the transport, whack the guards, and make off with 98 cases of standard issue army weapon x, and 2 cases of decidedly non-standard issue MJ12 contraband y.
What happens next??
Does ATF get involved to recover all these weapons? Does the army handle it? And how do our intrepid agents get involved? Certainly MJ12 is going to want their two boxes of oreo cookies back. Presumably Alpha cell wants to commandeer the cookies in question to see what MJ12's cooking up? Waco anyone?
Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 14:04:48 EDT
From: Steve Long
In a message dated 98-06-09 13:52:39 EDT, you write:
For example, I understand that Kidnapping is considered to fall under the Federal jurisdiction, and therefore the local FBI agents have jursidiction over the local law enforcement boys.
This isn't correct, I'm afraid; it's a good example of how TV often gets things wrong. Kidnapping is a state crime, within the jurisdiction of the state where it takes place. However, if the kidnapper crosses state lines with his victim, or if the victim is a federal official, *then* it's a state [sic] crime.
As a basic rule of thumb, the feds have jurisdiction ONLY over those things specifically assigned to them as violations of federal law. The states have jurisdiction over everything else. The way Congress is these days, the reach of federal criminal jurisdiction has expanded a lot, but it's still more limited than that of the states.
I'm working on a scenario wherein MJ12 is shipping some sensitive cargo on a standard military transport. What's supposed to be in the truck? Oh, I don't know, rocket parts, M16s, ammunition boxes, land-mines — doesn't really matter, I don't think. What *does* matter is what's *really* in the truck: several sealed containers containing dangerous organic material of a genetically questionable nature, if you know what I mean (and I think that you do)…
Now, suppose some local militia outfit were to hear about this shipment, and decide to hijack it. So, Billy McBob and his cronies hold up the transport, whack the guards, and make off with 98 cases of standard issue army weapon x, and 2 cases of decidedly non-standard issue MJ12 contraband. What happens next??
Does ATF get involved to recover all these weapons? Does the army handle it? And how do our intrepid agents get involved? Certainly MJ12 is going to want their two boxes of oreo cookies back. Presumably Alpha cell wants to commandeer the cookies in question to see what MJ12's cooking up? Waco anyone?
There are lots of potential jurisdictional conflicts here. Since it involves the military and federal property, it's definitely a federal crime. The US Army would bring in its Criminal Investigation division, and probably also seek the help of the BATF and FBI. There may also have been purely state crimes committed during the attack, which the state would investigate and prosecute. The most likely happenstance is a "task force" with representatives from all agencies involved to work together to solve the crime. How well they work together is, of course, up to you as GM — and a good source of quasi-political dilemmas for the PCs.
Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 13:25:24 -0400
From: Mark Edwards
At 01:49 PM 6/9/98 -0400, Viktor Haag wrote:
What happens next??
Initially, the question of BATF agents moving in depends upon the contents of the "official cargo manifest" i.e. what was said to be on the truck. If the manifest says firearms, BATF will probably get involved, however, i think that Army CID or FIB will have primary jurisdiction.
In any case, the individuals actually on the case will be MJ12, therefore the BATF, CID, or FBI question really is really their cover story anyway.
Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 13:23:29 -0500
From: David Harrison
This isn't correct, I'm afraid; it's a good example of how TV often gets things wrong. Kidnapping is a state crime, within the jurisdiction of the state where it takes place. However, if the kidnapper crosses state lines with his victim, or if the victim is a federal official, *then* it's a state crime.
Though this is basically true, there is one slight correction to be made. The FBI can become involved in kidnappings automatically after 24 hours. It is assumed after this time that state lines have been crossed and it falls under federal jurisdiction.
Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 14:29:54 -0400
From: Alexander Beckers
This isn't correct, I'm afraid; it's a good example of how TV often gets things wrong. Kidnapping is a state crime, within the jurisdiction of the state where it takes place. However, if the kidnapper crosses state lines with his victim, or if the victim is a federal official, *then* it's a state crime.
I thought the Lindberg Law stated that the FBI could take over in a kidnapping case after a certain amount of time, on the assumption that by that time, the kidnappers would have crossed state lines.
Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 19:29:14 GMT0BST
From: Robert Thomas
I watched an episode of the Outer Limits last night with the same plot. Some militia group "Lightning Dawn" IIRC, hijack this truck believing it to contain stinger missiles, and it actually contains an alien in cryogenic freeze. Of course they let it out and have to face it apparently it was the only part of ship that crashed in New Mexico to survive, it was supposed to be the sentient cooling system for the ship which was a collection of symbiotic organisms, if that's the radiator what's the exhaust like;-)
Anyway not living in America I'd assume that the Army who were shipping this thing to Russia for storage, would be all over the incident. In the DG rulebook aren't there special Army investigators for this situation who would take over in the interests of National Security. In the UK this would come under the Defense of the Realm Act, basically the Army does what it wants and perhaps apologises but dosen't explain later.
In the episode they thought they'd killed this creature (which was a superconducting superfluid nice alliteration I thought if redundant in the decription a superfluid is superconducting by its nature I think) by sticking a neon sign into it and electrifying it (more complicated than that something to do with the neon interfering with another gas but I forget) 2 people got out alive 1 of the militia sterotype nice guy looking out for his brother who made a bad choice, and the army Captain lo and behold another sterotype - career army woman who sees that people can be outside the army and still be worthwhile. All together now AAAWWWW! Anyway in a usual outer limits style end the thing had reproduced and the episode closed with a frozen motorcycle cop inside the building (very very very Terminator 2 even down to the shades!)
Maybe someone can remember the Episode title and you could check it out on video. Anyway why not just handle it as a cross jurisdictional major incident involving representatives from various law enforcement communities, wait a mo this is begining to sound familier.
Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 14:52:21 -0400
From: Elliot A. Rushing
Steve Long (Hey, Steve!) wrote:
As a basic rule of thumb, the feds have jurisdiction ONLY over those things specifically assigned to them as violations of federal law. The states have jurisdiction over everything else. The way Congress is these days, the reach of federal criminal jurisdiction has expanded a lot, but it's still more limited than that of the states.
Steve, you beat me to the punch! ;)
Another concept to toss in is that often crimes violate both federal and state law, and federal and state/local agencies may have competing agendas — often, too, in real life, while the federal government has the higher authority (if applicable), often state/local agencies have the practical upper hand, especially larger agencies (e.g., the FBI has around 2500-3500 agents, NYPD has *38,000* officers) in terms of resources, pull, and especially information/informant base.
Yet another point is that often federal agencies, due to limited resources, have an annoying tendency to "handle" federal investigations (particularly RE bank heists) by asking the local agencies to investigate (which we do anyway — state law, remember?) and forward our reports/arrest results to them. Of course, the newspaper reports always say the FBI solved the crime. ;)
Gotta love that. ;)
There are lots of potential jurisdictional conflicts here. Since it involves the military and federal property, it's definitely a federal crime. The US Army would bring in its Criminal Investigation division, and probably also seek the help of the BATF and FBI. There may also have been purely state crimes committed during the attack, which the state would investigate and prosecute. The most likely happenstance is a "task force" with representatives from all agencies involved to work together to solve the crime. How well they work together is, of course, up to you as GM — and a good source of quasi-political dilemmas for the PCs.
Good analysis, Steve — actually, the task force concept is *very* much in vogue right now, and could be used to justify so *many* otherwise laughable combinations in Delta Green. ;)
It also works very well in real life, but factionalism can and does happen.
Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 15:06:31 -0400
From: Elliot A. Rushing
Howdy, Alex!
I thought the Lindberg Law stated that the FBI could take over in a kidnapping case after a certain amount of time, on the assumption that by that time, the kidnappers would have crossed state lines.
While the concept of "taking over" an investigation has a certain attraction, and while turf battles can and do occur rarely (usually to the detriment of everyone), usually in RL, by the time a kidnapping case has gotten to the point where the FBI will be called in, you're going to have multiple local agencies (perhaps in different states) already involved and pulling their collective hair out, as well as the potential unofficial involvement/ harrassment (forgive me) of concerned citizen's groups (especially if it's custody or domestic violence-related).
In these circumstances, generally everyone needs all the help they can get, and the "task force" mentality comes into play. The feds have superior tracking technology, computer resources, and logistic and/or consulting capabilities, while the locals usually have superior (you guessed it) local contacts and info.
Still, the world of Delta Green seems ideally suited for turf battles, although we're trying to steer away from that in our reality. ;)
Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 15:32:17 -0500 (CDT)
From: Don Juneau
On Tue, 9 Jun 1998, Viktor Haag wrote:
Now, suppose some local militia outfit were to hear about this shipment, and decide to hijack it. So, Billy McBob and his cronies hold up the transport, whack the guards, and make off with 98 cases of standard issue army weapon x, and 2 cases of decidedly non-standard issue MJ12 contraband y.
A large part of it will be a military investigation, but the FBI *will* be involved; possibly ATF, once the manifest is known (I suppose the MJ12 Happy Meals <TM> *won't* be listed <G>), but certainly every local/state law-enforcement type in the area.
This was seen not too long ago, when a truck carrying USAF (IIRC) air-to-air missiles wandered away in Texas; the civvie contract-driver dumped the trailer in a lumber-yard, and cruised off. What I remember said that he may have been connected with militia-type activities, and that possibly the lumber-yard was the drop-site… but i don't remember for certain.
This was roughly the same period of time that that A-10 went missing out of Arizona, and was found in Colorado - near the site of the Okie-City bombing trial. <insert appropriate music here>
Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 18:40:29 EDT
From: Shane Ivey
Does ATF get involved to recover all these weapons? Does the army handle it? And how do our intrepid agents get involved?
The US is governed by layer upon layer of bureaucracy, each of which has its own goals and agenda and police: municipality police, county sheriffs, state police, Department of Justice, Department of the Treasury, Department of Defense, CIA… As others have made clear, in the case you described any number of different agencies could get involved, most likely resulting in a task force to try to coordinate their activities. Sometimes those work beautifully; sometimes they don't. In a case where you have military investigators as well as federal law enforcement and state and local police involved, the differences might stand out and cause some problems. (Fun for the Keeper, hair-wrenching for the players!) One phenomenon that is often portrayed on various crime dramas is the turf rivalry that can crop up, particularly between local and federal law enforcement. The FBI and the New York City Police Department have a particularly long history of that kind of feud, stemming from J. Edgar Hoover's glory-hounding heyday. This should certainly be the case with both Delta Green and MJ-12 directly involved in the recovery operation! Both covert groups will have operatives running around trying to steer things—and trying to root out the opposition if they know they are there.
I guess my point is to use the events to highlight the byzantine nature of the government agencies involved, while adding a hefty dose of intrigue and suspicion for the players to chew on while they are trying to get their cell leader to get somebody to pull rank on their behalf. ;-)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 20:33:49 -0700
From: Frank C. Pine
There's a lot of neat stuff happening outside the metro area in the east end. They don't call the Inland Empire the meth capital of the world for nothing. Most of the law enforcement agencies out here work pretty close together. They have what they call "the war room," which is an information clearinghouse. Before they make a bust, they send their information to the war room to find out if any other organisation is working a case within 100 yards of the target location. This prevents officers and deputies from wasting their time chasing officers or deputies from another agency.
I've been slowly collecting data for a big project on drug enforcement out here, and I've come across some pretty interesting stuff. In addition to numerous multi-organizational street enforcement teams (SETs), we also have WESTNET (West-end Narcotics Enforcement Team) and many other teams. Among the more interesting groups, in my opinion, are the Crime Impact Teams, usually consisting of members of the sheriff's office and local police gang units, as well as a parole board officer and maybe someone from animal control — any excuse to get into a drug house is usually enough to get the dirt on at least one suspect.
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 22:37:44 -0400
From: Daniel Harms
For no real reason, I decided to temporarily re-assign the DG team in my next adventure to the Army CIC. I checked out their web page (http://www.belvoir.army.mil/cidc/index.htm), and found some information which makes this particular agency a good one to choose for DG investigations.
Why? Because the agency can investigate any "crime committed against the Army, one which may have been committed by a member of the military, or one committed by anyone against a member of the military".
If you can't find a way to weasel your mission into that definition, youmight as well turn in your gun. F'rinstance:
AGENT: Sheriff, we have reason to believe that this John Doe is Private Ed Savage, who went AWOL from Fort Campbell two weeks ago.
(Three days later)
AGENT: Sheriff, we are satisfied that this John Doe is not Private Ed Savage. Best of luck on that arson investigation.
Of course, your investigators will have to fake Army membership (or former Army membership, if they're investigating financial crimes), but on the upside they can carry around badges with the CIC's motto, "Do What Has To Be Done."