Almost fully compiled into various Tradecraft articles and Friendlies.
THIS IS MATERIAL FROM THE ICE CAVE. IT HAS NOT YET BEEN FORMATTED.
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:42:11 -0400
From: Graeme Price
Something has been bugging me for a while now. Namely just how DG ops are covered up. I can see how this would work for FBI-agents (ADAM assigns mission, handles reports and generates false paper trails), but there would have to be someone (by "someone" I mean a DG someone")in an ADAM-like position of power in every agency which contained DG agents (from Alien Intelligence, the DNI seems to fit this bill for ONI), so that time sheets, reports, medical leave etc. can be made to look like something inocuous. This could especially be a problem where friendlies are involved.
Also, who pays the travel expenses for agents on an Op? This is not as stupid a question as it sounds: hotel credit card receipts, hire care records, airline seat allocations etc. would be the first thing that MJ-12 would be looking for to find out who's been snooping around their black operations. Also I seem to recall hearing somewhere that travel expenses of some Federal employees are open to public access. If this is the case it gives lots of potential leads to Saucerwatch, Phenomen-X, cultists etc. to bug the investigators with.
Which also leads on to forensics. Are there clean-up teams to remove evidence (for example the blood stains that give non-typable DNA fingerprints.. or don't have DNA at all?) or is this handled by the agents themselves? Who picks the bullets out of the walls of the cultist's house to stop local law enforcement running a ballistics check and finding out that the round was fired by agent Smith's service automatic (when according to FBI records he was on holiday in Acapulco)?
Anyone else got any thoughts on this? Secret black funds chanelled via DG-run accounts? Untraceable firearms/heavy weapons (explosives?) arsenals at safe houses? A DG-car pool? DG-pathology labs? Comments (Alphonse)? Or am I just stirring up a hornet's nest unneccesarily?
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:02:25 -0500 (CDT)
From: "G. Wyckoff"
Also, who pays the travel expenses for agents on an Op? This is not as
stupid a question as it sounds: hotel credit card receipts, hire care
records, airline seat allocations etc. would be the first thing that MJ-12
would be looking for to find out who's been snooping around their black
operations. Also I seem to recall hearing somewhere that travel expenses of
some Federal employees are open to public access. If this is the case it
gives lots of potential leads to Saucerwatch, Phenomen-X, cultists etc. to
bug the investigators with.
This isn't a stupid question _at all_. The answer that concerns me is, how long before MJ-12 or someone else _does_ figure out that the PC's are knee-deep in a conspiracy. That is, what is the servicable life of a character?
Anyone else got any thoughts on this? Secret black funds chanelled via
DG-run accounts? Untraceable firearms/heavy weapons (explosives?) arsenals
at safe houses? A DG-car pool? DG-pathology labs? Comments (Alphonse)? Or
am I just stirring up a hornet's nest unneccesarily?
I wonder how much "black" money DG has to play with: how much of the NSA, CIA, or DIA budget which is not subject to item by item oversight that DG has access to. Is it even possible to calculate DG's annual operating budget in the same way as it is possible to do so for the CIA or NSA?
As far as some of the physical evidence, why cover it up? If I got a sample of untypable DNA from some "blood" substance from a crime scene, I would assume that it was 1) bacterial contamination 2) due to some chemical which rendered the DNA unusable (such as something that depurinated it or 3) a really shitty job by the people at the crime scene. I would not think "this is alien DNA, ohmigod". As far as weapons, I can imagine that DG might have a source of untracable weapons, or that the individal agents do. Agents might have been in a position to pick up "throw down" pieces during their investigations, military people might have weapons captured from enemies, or DG friendlies that work at an arms factory might have access to guns with no serial numbers or serial numbers which have not yet been registered. For airline tickets and such, maybe DG has stolen blanks from travel agencies (several travel agents int he Chicagoland area just got ripped off for "blank" tickets, and the airlines have almost no way of knowing which tickets that come to them from travel agents are valid or not.) What about sources of cash for Delta Green agents? I imagine that several friendlies might be in a position to launder money stolen from cultists, or stolen from anyone that DG can get it from. Cars, boats, airplanes?? What about them? Well, the government has repossesed vehicles that they auction off all of the time; what if several of them were reported "destroyed in an accident" and never got to market. Or maybe someone rigs the auction so that a DG friendly or agent running a front company can buy a few things cheap. Maybe DG has a few hackers who have backdoors into car rental agency computers. Phony I.D.? Hell, forget phony, we have a friendly at the New York State DMV who will give you a real one, no problem. And health care, which has got to be the trickiest, even there, I am sure there are ways around it. "What? FBI Agent Smith who was on his vacation in Mexico was in a horrible car accident and is in the hospital there? Captain Graves who was on shoreleave in Thailand got shot by pochers while he was hiking in the jungle?" And what if someone got a whiff of wrongdoing?? Deny, deny, deny, slash and burn, coverup.
One thing I get the sense of is that DG are about the last bunch of folks to give a shit if one _individual_ is at risk from the government. They are trying to save the world from monsters who would destroy everyone, damnit, one persons career means nothing. And if someone was going to expose the conspiracy, I can imagine that they would walk up dead.
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 10:24:22 -0700
From: Christian Conkle
Something has been bugging me for a while now. Namely just how DG ops are
covered up.
(snip)
One would have to assume that Delta Green maintains many more friendlies than agents. Accounting Clerks, Payroll officers, Supply Seargents, Motorpool attendants, etc. These people know of Delta Green and when they get a receive a requisition with a little green triangle sticker on it (easily removable, like stars in Kindergarten), they know to give it "the special treatment".
Also, who pays the travel expenses for agents on an Op?
Again, these kinds of expenses would have to be routed through designated friendly accountants. He who controls the money controls the operation.
Which also leads on to forensics. Are there clean-up teams to remove
evidence (for example the blood stains that give non-typable DNA
fingerprints.. or don't have DNA at all?) or is this handled by the agents
themselves? Who picks the bullets out of the walls of the cultist's house
to stop local law enforcement running a ballistics check and finding out
that the round was fired by agent Smith's service automatic (when according
to FBI records he was on holiday in Acapulco)?
The extent of the Delta Green friendly network would have to be extensive. There could be friendly judges, forensic team investigators, etc. Of course, if the information is too outlandish, who would believe it?
Director Johnson: "Agent Smith's weapon was responsible for an unexplained killing in Poughkeepsie? That's impossible! He's on holiday in Acapulco! Double-check those records. Nothing? That's what I thought!"
Anyone else got any thoughts on this? Secret black funds chanelled via
DG-run accounts? Untraceable firearms/heavy weapons (explosives?) arsenals
at safe houses? A DG-car pool? DG-pathology labs? Comments (Alphonse)? Or
am I just stirring up a hornet's nest unneccesarily?
The problem with the friendly-network theory is that once the network becomes TOO large, it becomes nigh impossible to keep Delta Green a secret. There are, what, an estimated 74 agents or so in Delta Green? Let's say each agent required 5 friendlies on average to maintain the cover-up. That would be a LOT of friendlies. 370. Well, not that many, really, I guess. Plus, a lot of the friendlies would overlap. 1 well-placed Federal Judge is worth about 20 local judges. A Defense Department Expense Auditor is worth about 20 agency accountants or Payroll clerks.
DoD memo to all payroll clerks: "All expense reports labelled DRX in the top corner will be forwarded to DoD Expense Auditor Lakely for processing."
Working, as I am, in a corporate environment for a government contracter with some authority on the ability to create policies and procedures (at least in the Web area), I can tell you that the directive doesn't always have to make sense, you're just expected to follow it. And no one asks any questions anyway. As long as it doesn't affect them, who cares who had to handle the audit? Less work for the prole.
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 10:43:41 -0700
From: CHRIS STRONG
It is very easy to see how DG gets their money. ever see those expense logs for just about any government agency? NASA says that it cost them 2.5 billion dollars to erect a 20x40 storage shed for fire fighting equipment, they also had nails to be used during the building of the storage shed priced at 3.00 a nail, hammers at 250.00, at these prices that NASA says they purchase equipment for it just shows that they are using a lot of money for general government mischief.
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 11:02:34 PDT
From: "Christian Klepac"
The problem with the friendly-network theory is that once the
I don't know about anyone else, but this point puts the role of Friendlies in a different perspective for me. It seems that with so many possible sources of compromise within an op, DG agents are really at the mercy of those who are covering their tracks. If MJ-12 is doing its job, then I'd wager that more than a few NPCs that the investigators depend on are actually double agents, and that's not counting moles who may be planted by "legitimate" intelligence agencies, foreign and domestic. I asssume that it's A CELL policy to run extensive background checks on all Friendlies, but… well, you can never be too paranoid.
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 11:10:25 -0700
From: CHRIS STRONG
As for the baliscitcs (SP?) on any agents gun it is probably registered in anothers name, or has been reported stolen a long time ago.
And for the agents who use a gun that is registered in their own name, all they have to do is throw away the gun, and have a friendly put in a report dated a few weeks back saying it was stolen.
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:53:56 -0700
From: Joseph Camp
The folks at Pagan Publishing plan to include a chapter on DG tradecraft in COUNTDOWN -along with the kitchen sink, apparently - but I'll try to briefly hit the high points. COs are encouraged to find their own solutions to these problems, as well.
FIREARMS
We strongly encourage agents to use weapons that aren't registered to them, and dispose of them after an op if the op required gunfire that drew police attention.
EXPENSES
We have a number of credit cards issued to paper individualspeople who do not exist except in documentation. These cards are circulated among COs as needed for ops. SOP is to make a sizable cash withdrawl from the card at the commencement of the op and to use the cash for all transactions. The funds…well, that's a long story. The short version is that over the decades, we have accumulated a sizable number of forgotten black-ops bank accounts. Invested shrewdly as the years have gone by, the funds have become substantial. And yes, the occasional $500 hammer helps out, though indirectlyagents in agencies who buy such hammers tend to know how that money moves around, and can dip into it under the guise of their normal duties.
PAPERWORK
As a rule of thumb, we either have someone at the agent's employer who can rig the paperwork, or we have someone at another agency who can rig the paperwork on their end to have the agent detached or loaned out to that other agency, when in truth they're going someplace else altogether.
Keep in mind that in the real world, DG as a whole rarely handles more than one or two ops a month, sometimes none. Many agents don't have a single op in a given year, but they do other tasks such as digging up information at their employers or doing other such legwork. Our special sorts of situations just don't come up all that often, and we therefore can make them happen with the same limited set of resources.
In your simulation exercises, you may have a much higher rate of events and a correspondingly greater need for infrastructure. And note that an "op" as defined above means a single short-term assignment. Some "ops" last for months or years, with numerous minor incidents along the way that can be handled in the course of the agent's normal duties, with only occasional need for a full-blown paperwork shuffle. And generally, at least one agent (or at least a friendly) on a given op really is there for official reasons; it's the others who he brings in that are there under false pretenses. In such cases, the "legit" agent can generate all the paperwork through his chain of command.
Finally, don't underestimate the point made in the DG sourcebook or by a poster in this thread: when bureaucrats are told what to do by someone who seems to have the proper authority, they do it without thinking twice. It's just part of the daily routine for them. A dozen conspiracies cannot match the innocent sweeping-under-the-rug efforts of a single overworked paper-pusher who can't be bothered to read between the lines.
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 14:35:53 -0700
From: Josh Shaw
Joseph Camp wrote:
EXPENSES
…… And yes, the occasional $500 hammer helps
out, though indirectly—agents in agencies who buy such hammers tend to
know how that money moves around, and can dip into it under the guise of
their normal duties.
To be a little more explicit: In the "real world" a certain amount of the $500 hammer is actually cover for various "black budget" items. How much of it? Who knows? Probably not all, as contractor greed is a mighty thing, perhaps most, the guys running NASA, DOD,etc aren't complete idiots you know, if they're paying $500 for a hammer there's some kind of reason involved. This, multiplied by a huge number of government projects, makes a *lot* of money being diverted of the books for various "legitimate" but secret projects. One guy in accounting who can move a tiny fraction of that off the books (the covert recipient thinks it really went for the *&^$%^ hammers, the covering agency thinks it went to black projects) can free up what is an ungodly amount of money in terms of a small group like Delta Green.
Or an ungodly amount of money in terms of an individual. The hard part about embezzlement is always accounting for where *you* got the cash. Audits usually *start* when somebody notices that the bookkeeper is wearing Armani suits and driving a Rolls….
True story: Chase Manhattan figures interest on all its checking accounts daily. Or at least they did, don't know if they still do. Most accounts of course came out to so many dollars and so many point something cents. A programer working there wrote a routine to transfer all those fractional cents to his account. A fraction of a cent times literally millions of accounts every day…… it adds up fast. The guy was doing fine until somebody decided they ought to check up on the alleged bequest from his dead aunt. No Aunt. No bequest. And where did you get the money for that Bentley outside?
The danger to Delta Green in all this is that the friendly manning the books over at Project HAARP might be tempted to start playing "a dollar for Delta, a dollar for me, a dollar for Delta, a dollar for me". This is…..not fine exactly, many Delta agents are in fact Federal Law Officers sworn to prevent and punish exactly this sort of thing…but not a big problem. Until he gets caught and the inquisitors start asking "What did you do with the other half of the money".
So, how much of Delta Green's operational time is spent on wet jobs on our own people to maintain security and who does A Cell send to do them?
PAPERWORK
Never underestimate the power of just not bothering to file any paperwork. If there's nothing on their desk that they have to process, it is amazing (no its not) how few government bureaucrats are going to go looking to find out where you've been, what you've been doing. The easy assumption is that somebody else processed it already. Make no waves and the time servers will think you're one of them.
Also, even if you have to show ID to rent a car, a room, a video whatever; if you pay cash, nobody *ever* runs the card. And, take it from somebody who used to work retail, almost no one ever checks to see if your signature matches the back of the card. A fair number of people never bother to sign the back of their cards any way. Pay cash and nobody will notice that the card was reported stolen six months ago.
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 16:55:31 -0500 (CDT)
From: "G. Wyckoff"
I have a comment. People keep mentioning $500 hammers. When this first came up (many years ago) as front page news (that XXX agency was paying <insert ungodly sum of money here> for <common item>, one of the explanations bandied about was that the $500 was for one _unit_ of "Hammer" not one hammer. So, maybe the hammers only cost $50 becuase they were sold in units of ten, or something. Don't know if this explanation is true or not, but… it does sound like something that a beaurcracy would do. It also sounds like a great de facto explanation for a government cover-up, take your pick.
Josh Shaw wrote:
So, how much of Delta Green's operational time is spent on wet jobs on our
own people to maintain security and who does A Cell send to do them?
And don't you wonder if there is some group outside of the cell system or some cell in particular that is responsible for stopping security leaks?? And what happens if your players find out about it the hard way?
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 15:46:53 -0700
From: CHRIS STRONG
I remember the dateline report on it, and the price was 200$ per hammer. and 3 bucks for 1 nail, that's why the box of nails coasted a few thousand dollars, which dateline caught, and made a report of. also the governments reply for it was that the price includes the prices of inspections for each item, each nail must go through a five point inspection, and it also included shipping, buyer costs, <add in bureaucrat crap>.
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 20:41:50 EDT
From: J. Frederick MacKenzie
Jerry postulated:
«« And don't you wonder if there is some group outside of the cell system or some cell in particular that is responsible for stopping security leaks?? And what happens if your players find out about it the hard way? »»
I suspect that the idea is that nobody ever finds out about DG IA (Internal Affairs) at all…
"Investigators determined that the car accident was caused by the driver having a heart attack while on the road. When interviewed, his co-workers indicated that he had been under extreme pressure at work, preparing for the annual government audit."
The average friendly only knows enough to motivate him to do what is needed. Not anything more. A "fall guy" is then set up, with all the relevant information leading to him rather that to DG. As an example: Friendly X is used to funnel stolen and illegally altered firearms to other DG friendlies. Before X does anything, however, a subtle paper trail is laid. This paper trail gives evidence of secret money transactions between X and a member of a xenophobic Montana militia group. The DG members arranging everything suggest to X that they are members of a group of patriotic Americans helping fight totalitarian guerrillas in a third world country. After everything is thoroughly obscured by layers of BS, nobody will figure out what's really going on.
Helping obscure the picture are splinter groups of DG. Some are remnants of the 1960's DG that are still motivated to help Humanity, Democracy, and the "American Way". Others are friendlies that aren't reliable enough to deal with directly, but can be directed in useful ways with an anonymous note or bundle of news clippings once in a while. Still others are full fledged agents of DG, gone "rogue" and out of contact with the organization. High ranking government officials will have heard of (hushed whisper) Delta Green, but will have wildly varying ideas of what DG is (or was). Most believe that recent rumors of DG activity are due to renegade individuals in the government. Others believe that such rumors are mere paranoia.
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 17:53:59 -0700
From: Josh Shaw
One more little tidbit on financing.
On the really big projects like HAARP, Star Wars or the Space Shuttle so many divergent departments are diverting funds to black projects that the chances are good that if the one department's auditor finds funds diverted to a "Project Maximillion" he'll just assume it's another agency's project that he's not cleared for and ignore it.
Bureaucracy and compartmentalization are your friends
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 18:06:45 -0700
From: Josh Shaw
The DG members arranging everything suggest
to X that they are members of a group of patriotic Americans helping fight
totalitarian guerrillas in a third world country. After everything is
thoroughly obscured by layers of BS, nobody will figure out what's really
going on.
(One of) The technical term(s) for this is "False Flagging"
It's a common bit of tradecraft in intelligence work, recruiting agents who would never spy for you by pretending to be somebody else that they would work for.
(A slightly meaner technique is to false flag 'em to get info you don't really need but that the agency they think they're working for would want until they're in far to deep to quit. Then you tell 'em what you really want)
And how sure are you of who you're really working for?
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 21:57:28 EDT
From: Shane Ivey
« One would have to assume that Delta Green maintains many more friendlies than agents. Accounting Clerks, Payroll officers, Supply Seargents, Motorpool attendants, etc. These people know of Delta Green and when they get a receive a requisition with a little green triangle sticker on it (easily removable, like stars in Kindergarten), they know to give it "the special treatment". »
Excellent comments on this thread, everyone!
About security:
Very few Friendlies in the game should have any idea what they are really involved in; your typical Friendly should be convinced that their contact Agent is a lone wolf operative trying to save the world (or that the cell of a few agents is the only such group), and that he or she is one of the only people in all the world that they can turn to to ask for help. A Friendly should be shocked to learn that there are DOZENS of Agents and HUNDREDS of Friendlies "just like me" out there; and by the time a Friendly learns that much, it should be time to reevaluate whether the Friendly is trustworthy enough to be made a full Agent… or not.
And that brings us to the other issue: what do we do about leaks? We stop them. Clean and cold. In most DG games in which I've been player or Keeper, the only thing that would distinguish most DG Agents from those slimy NRO-Speedwagon boys is ideology (NROD wants to steal the nasty alien secrets; DG wants to kill the nasty alien secrets) and resources (they have more than we do); their methods and sense of conscience tend to be about the same. They are men and women who have grown hard and dangerous and cruel for the sake of doing the greater good; and hopefully that does not itself cause them to lose track of the greater good. Delta Green agents are largely federal law enforcement, intelligence, and special forces types who have consciously decided to abandon operational ethics as necessary in pursuit of their goal: as a group they are very very well acquainted with blackmail, money laundering, evidence tampering, and murder.
Have a nice day. :-)
Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 00:51:22 -0700
From: Lech Von Oxen
And here I was thinking A Cell stood for Accounting.
Sheesh…
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 09:13:09 -0400
From: "Eric Brennan"
I'm probably a little late on this thread due to vacation, but I know in Jim's game that at least my character was on call as a "cleaner," i.e. somebody who saw fit to clean up sloppy messes. I imagine with the DG mindset, there's probably one guy in every other cell who's just a little too close to the edge. These guys make the best cleaners. Got a friendly who's getting out of line? Get rid of him. It's easier to do this early when the mess is small.
The flip side of this was that my character was more than a little afraid that one day _he'd_ be cleaned.
As for financing, where does all that money from drug cartels go? I'm sure hundreds of millions of dollars in various pharms each year goes missing from evidence rooms and captured frieghters into the hands of mysterious DG Men in Black, who then hand it over to Mafia "friendlies" at a decent enough discount. If the CIA was doing it and got caught, do you think DG couldn't do it and not get caught? Our game is a dirty one, my friends.
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 12:13:45 -0400
From: Graeme Price
Checking over the recent thread on Accountability (excellent posts by the way, everyone!), a few thoughts occur to me. Thought I'd share them and see what other people think.
Firstly, friendlies can be a valuable resource providing a lot of specialist knowledge, equipment or authority (academics, beaurocrats, influential citizens etc). Very useful for things like cover ups, reading risky mythos tomes (the ones in languages that agents aren't conversant in) and lab work. But not all friendlies will be so useful (some could be members of the criminal elements, jouranlists, "normal cops", undertakers [think about it] and physicians for examples). Many of the second group will not be aware of the true nature of DG, or even of it's existence at all (merely that FBI agents occasionally use them as "consultants").
One thought I have is that not all friendlies will be equally "disposable" if push comes to shove. For example, mythos-aware achaeologists fluent in Aklo, Sanscrit and ancient Hebrew will not exactly be commonplace (even less commonplace than DG Agents themselves: operating in the rarified atmosphere of Intelligence agencies as DG does, potential field agents are easy to find: people with the "right" specialities probably aren't). So it seems logical that there will be two "types" of friendly classification:
The first (A-list) are the ones who have unique skills or irreplaceable experience who would be highly valuable (if not indispensable) in rebuilding the organization after a major crash. Or who have enough concrete proof of mythos activity to either be a major risk to the organization, or to be instrumental in vindicating it. They would likely be aware (to a greater or lesser extent) of DG's true nature. It is probable that A-cell would have emergency escape plans and secret identities already in place for these individuals (although the individuals themselves may not be aware of them). Data on these individuals is likely not held on the DG servers, and access to them may be restricted to certain cells (perhaps to A-cell). Dr. Fulani may be a good example of this type of friendly.
The second type would be the "B-list" (or sacrificial lambs). These are the less vauable members of the organization and those operating on the periphery. They would certainly not be aware of the true nature of the organization and may have participated in perhaps only one operation (perhaps none and just in the DG files as potential recruits: or because they are particularly odious [example: George Naff the incompetant and officious FBI accountant who keeps querying ADAMS travel expenses… George is just an innocent cretin on the books to be a fall guy to take up time and act as a red herring if the Sh*t hits the fan: he _probably_ won't actually get convicted of anything because he _genuinely_ doesn't know anything {as an aside think what will happen when MJ-12 get hold of him: "Damn! Those Delta Green occultist bastards have found a way of programming thier agents so that our MK-ULTRA drugs don't work on them!" says Lepus as his gun clears it's holster}]). Data on these guys would be held on the most easily (but not too easily) compromised server, so that whilst the investigation into just what DG is and who is involved is starting, sacrificing the B-list would buy time to get the real core members of DG out of harms way.
Wheels, within wheels. Comments?
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 12:55:56 +0100
From: "Clairr O'Connor & Kevin Honan"
"Got a friendly who's getting out of line? Get rid of him. It's easier to do this early when the mess is small……As for financing, where does all that money from drug cartels go? I'm sure hundreds of millions of dollars in various pharms each year goes missing from evidence rooms and captured frieghters into the hands of mysterious DG Men in Black, who then hand it over to Mafia "friendlies" at a decent enough discount. If the CIA was doing it and got caught, do you think DG couldn't do it and not get caught? Our game is a dirty one, my friends."
Just as a matter of personal opinion I'd have to disagree with that kind of attitude. If you're willing to murder (not "clean", "neutralise", "dispose of.." or "deal with") ordinary people just becuase they saw something they shouldn't, aren't you missing the point ? There is no point in destroying a village to save it. If people are that disposable, what are DG fighting for ? This is one reason that I don't play DG as written, people from the intelligence community are the last people who should end up fighting the Mythos. They care to much about "oversight" and "national security" and care far to little about peoples lives and families.
"Opinions were divided as to notify the Massachussets State Police, and the negative finally one". The Dunwich Horror.
Are the people who organised the deaths of thousands of innocent civilians in Laos, Cambodia and Vietnam* really to be trusted with that of work ? Does the fact that DG ostentably works for the US Govt. mean that the US interests are more important then the rest of humanity ? Would they summon a Dhole to cripple Cuba once and for all ? Once you go down the road of "removing" little people for the sake of "national security" its hard to get back before you up the ante beyond the point of no return.
To qoute Graham Greene (a real life spook) "They haven't left us much to believe, have they ? - even disbelief. I can't believe in anything bigger than a home, or anything vaguer than a human being". Our Man in Havana.
THIS IS MATERIAL FROM THE ICE CAVE. IT HAS NOT YET BEEN FORMATTED.
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 12:52:04 -0400
From: "R. Menzi"
The first (A-list) are the ones who have unique skills or irreplaceable experience who would be highly valuable (if not indispensable) in rebuilding the organization after a major crash. <
What you want to call them, they're still friendlies. They would not be in a position to be revealed easily, seeing as each member of each cell, with a group of friendlies with him, should be independent on an op and could not be easily traced to the others. That's how I play it, YMMV.
If the shit hits the fan, getting out is the priority and restarting is not immediately in mind, though many agents would continue on a rogue basis. They should already be self-reliant in the field, as depending too much on DG will put the whole organization on the fast track to discovery.
The second type would be the "B-list" (or sacrificial lambs). These are the less valuable members of the organization and those operating on the periphery. They would certainly not be aware of the true nature of the organization and may have participated in perhaps only one operation <
On the contrary, the disposables are the ones who were on ops but don't know about the rest of the conspiracy. That's alot of lambs. Agents don't know each other's names, neither do friendlies. Many friendlies are given recommendations and promotions, whatever is within DG's power, both to make them more valuable and a bigger target for an investigating committee.
I'd say that one of the big lines between the friendlies and the real agents is that the real agents have plans for when the shit hits the fan and will generally get out while the friendlies, all of them, are left to distract the Senate and the press from the real agents, who are safely out of the firing line. That's why they try to get friendlies in positions of power and why pull is not the only factor in recruiting real agents; if you get their pull as a friendly, it's better to leave them as a big decoy than a big liability.
As far as friendlies being able to take down the conspiracy, see my earlier posts about intracell and intercell collaboration (nonexistent and rare, respectively) for the reasons why it would be a dead end. Only a few agents would be found and they would not know the identity of their cell leader, the only one who could even begin to compromise other cells.
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 13:33:45 -0400
From: "Eric Brennan"
Just as a matter of personal opinion I'd have to disagree with that kind of attitude. If you're willing to murder (not "clean", "neutralise", "dispose of.." or "deal with") ordinary people just becuase they saw something they shouldn't, aren't you missing the point ? There is no point in destroying a village to save it. If people are that disposable, what are
DG fighting for ? This is one reason that I don't play DG as written, people from the intelligence community are the last people who should end up fighting the Mythos. They care to much about "oversight" and "national security" and care far to little about peoples lives and families. <
I'm curious as to how exactly you play Delta Green without the intelligence community. Aren't you just playing Cthulu Now without it? This isn't to slight you or your opinions…I'm just curious. As to your opinions, I think the hazy world of the Int Comm is a neat place to play. It seems to me that combining a world of moral greys with psychological absolutes is a fun angle on the (to me, anyway) tired 1920's Cthulu campaigns. Since my characters is one of the ones quoted, I feel like I have to respond to your statements. As for the snuffing of innocent lives, my character was admittedly in the minority in the group, and was supposed to represent the "nasty underside" of DG, rather than the norm. The things you weren't supposed to think about.
As for how I played the character, think Leon out of the "Professional" rather than E. Howard Hunt. My character had problems with what he was doing, but if you look at what you're fighting…"Batlle not with monsters lest…"
"Opinions were divided as to notify the Massachussets State Police, and >the negative finally one". The Dunwich Horror.
The same mindset applies to DG.
Are the people who organised the deaths of thousands of innocent civilians
Maybe. Depends on how you look at the conflict. I'm sure there's DG cells that firmly believe in scorched earth, especially after meeting any variety of chthonic baddies from the bottom of the sea/antarctic wastes/depths of space.
Our interests in Britain seem to preclude that, and the fact the US government seems to profit only marginally from DGs investigations. MJ12 are the ones looking to US interests.
Agreed. that's one of the dangers that DG faces in some campaigns. In others, it's just an alliance of doctors and investigators.
To qoute Graham Greene (a real life spook) "They haven't left us much to
One of the problems of the profession. Now contrast that with the knowledge that the price of stopping the Mythos is that type of malaise, and you've got a character concept. (But not for the entire group, mind.)
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 10:32:33 -0700
From: Phil A Posehn
In general this seems eminently logical and useful…How would a covert group that had its genesis in the intelligence community ever have thought of it?
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 11:02:00 -0700
From: Phil A Posehn
"In our suposed idological rectitude, we sacrificed our compassion to the great god indifference. We protected the strong against the weak\, and we perfected the art of the public lie. We made enemies of decent reformers and friends of the most disgusting potentates. And we scarcely paused to to ask ourselves how much longer we could defend our society by these means and remain a society worth defending."
"The Secret Pilgrim" by John LeCarre'
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 11:03:20 -0700
From: Christian Conkle
Regarding the difference between NRODelta and Delta Green (hmm, both are Delta, is there a cosmic connection?), Delta Green Agents' willingness to do "whatever it takes" to get the job done, and it's attitude towards the "little people", I'd like to add my 1/50th of a dollar.
The biggest difference I've seen between NROD and DG is, as someone else pointed out, goals. MJ-12's goal is the exploitation of this extraterrestrial resource. They're willing to do "whatever it takes" to ensure they maintain a monopoly on this resource. No act or crime is beyond consideration in the perpetuation of this monopoly.
DG's goal, on the other hand, is the elimination of paranormal threats to ensure (take your pick): A) The Sovereignty of the United States Government or B) The safety and well-being of the Citizens of the United States or C) all of the above.
This is an important distinction. If A), then the government takes priority over it's citizens and agents are willing to do "whatever it takes" to ensure the Government's continuation. No act or crime is beyond consideration in the perpetuation of the U.S. Government. This is the John Erlichman point of view. The point of view that puts very little difference between DG and NROD. These people believe you must invalidate the Constitution in order to save it. A very cynical paradigm but possibly more realistic.
If B) or C), then the rights of Joe Citizen are important. DG agents in this paradigm must work within at least a moral framework if not a legal one. The Constitution is important to these people. The goal is more optimistic, possibly unrealistic. Agents will be more principled and idealistic. They might break and enter a building to steal secrets, but they won't torture a suspect for information or murder someone for knowing too much.
In reality, Delta Green agents will likely be a mixture of both. Delta Green as an organization might have an "official" view (how official can one get in an unofficial unorganized organization), and might even go so far as to recommend certain restraints in bahavior to it's agents in one instance but then look the other way in another.
Most organizations have a charter or a procedural manual for these kinds of issues. Unfortunately, the nature of DG prohibits such tangible evidence from being circulated to it's agents. I have a feeling that if DG has one, there's probably only one copy and it's under Alphonse's arm with the Manuscript de Maniscrotto. Perhaps a DG extranet with really really black ice security might be necessary. Heh.
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 15:32:07 -0500
From: William Timmins
"In our suposed idological rectitude, we sacrificed our compassion to the
great god indifference. We protected the strong against the weak\, and we
perfected the art of the public lie. We made enemies of decent reformers
and friends of the most disgusting potentates. And we scarcely paused to
to ask ourselves how much longer we could defend our society by these
means and remain a society worth defending."
"The Secret Pilgrim" by John LeCarre'
EXCELLENT quote, and a good thought about DG in general.
Part of the horror of Delta Green is the very modernist spin on the Lovecraftian SAN loss. That is… the slow and slippery slope. Not of SAN, but of morality.
It is very much a case that to fight the monsters, one can (and perhaps must) become one. Which is quite horrible. ;)
This all bears very strongely on my Endtime stuff. Hopefully I'll have it done in a week or two (last two weeks were much too busy to get any decent writing done, feh)
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 17:37:29 -0500
From: "Charles O. Baucum Jr."
Something has been bugging me for a while now.
These are simple tradecraft issues. The CIA has been running drugs and weapons for decades to fund black operations. The KGB attempted to destabilize our culture with drugs while funding terrorist organizations with the profits (even Readers Digest reported on that). Untraceable firearms are as close as the local flea market or pawn shop. Heavier arms can be stolen from National Guard armories. The majority of illegal automatic weapons on the street today come in the country with the drug trade or are stolen from the National Guard. Rental cars are quick transportation and are safer and more reliable than auto theft (but don't rule out stealing a car, the police would have to trip over a stolen car to find it). And lets not forget the power of networking. You are only seven people away from knowing anything you want to know. I'm only six people away from the guy who carries the launch codes for nuclear missiles, and I'm just a drafter for the phone company. DG people are plugged into the whole intel community, they can be expected to know someone who knows someone who can do almost anything. Read any of Richard Marcinko's books to find out how to run a black operation on a shoestring. It's so simple it's scary.
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 17:46:23 -0500
From: "Charles O. Baucum Jr."
I don't know about anyone else, but this point puts the role of
Friendlies in a different perspective for me. It seems that with so many
possible sources of compromise within an op, DG agents are really at the
mercy of those who are covering their tracks.
DG is not really a secret. MJ12 knows they are out there. Others must know that they are, or at least were, active. The problem comes not with finding out that there is a conspiracy, but in penetrating that conspiracy.
You are at the mercy of those who cover your tracks, cover them yourself. Even in the old days when I ran a first ed. CoC game, the players used misdirection and disinformation to cover their illegal activities.
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 17:50:29 -0500
From: "Charles O. Baucum Jr."
As for the baliscitcs (SP?) on any agents gun it is probably registered
in anothers name, or has been reported stolen a long time ago.
And for the agents who use a gun that is registered in their own name,
all they have to do is throw away the gun, and have a friendly put in a
report dated a few weeks back saying it was stolen.
H&K P4 and P9 as well as the Tanfoglio 9mm have interchangeable barrels. You can get them and others at any gun show, leaving no record of the purchase. Also, I have heard a rumor that the way H&K makes their rifling renders the bullet untraceable to a specific weapon; ballistics labs can tell immediately that the bullet was fired from an H&K weapon, but not which specific weapon. This is only a rumor, verify before betting real money on it
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 17:57:28 -0500
From: "Charles O. Baucum Jr."
I suspect that the idea is that nobody ever finds out about DG IA (Internal Affairs) at all…
The point of a cell structure is that any one member only knows a few others. No compromised individual can bring down more than one cell and no compromised cell can bring down more than a few others.
Date: Sat, 08 Aug 1998 19:19:59 -0400
From: Daniel Harms
Just as a matter of personal opinion I'd have to disagree with that
If it works for you, go for it. However, you might consider whether you might be missing out on one of the best parts of the setting.
On one hand, Delta Green is made up of some fairly idealistic people. After all, the fact that Delta Green exists at all indicates that some individuals within the government are concerned about the supernatural powers which U. S. citizens must face. On the other, it is made up of individuals who are members of organizations which can do stupid, crazy, horrific, or inhumane things, and as such, they may also do these things when on Delta Green missions. It isn't that difficult to play with this, actually. I suppose A-Cell has a detailed psychological profile of each agent which would allow them to channel certain operatives to certain tasks. Thus, the group can be completely idealistic and never have any inkling of what the agency is doing behind their back.
It's all right to play Delta Green agents as modern crusaders against Evil or hardcore murderers, but I think both approaches miss a key aspect of the setting - that of humanity. The characters are human, and will therefore commit improper, illegal, or immoral actions on occasion. Yet because they are human, they can question their actions and set their own agenda, follow their own path. Delta Green is probably better than Majestic-12, but it is not perfect, and the agents must decide whether they can live with this or if they must seek to leave, transform, or expose the group because of this. This leads to situations where the characters can shine, not as combat monsters or representatives of moral force, but as individuals.
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 00:07:28 +0100
From: "Clairr O'Connor & Kevin Honan"
I'm curious as to how exactly you play Delta Green without the
intelligence community. Aren't you just playing Cthulu Now without it?
This isn't to slight you or your opinions…I'm just curious.
My game is kinda weird I suppose, its only been running for five weeks now (and I have a depressing feeling its gonna die the death…..two players out of four not turning up two weeks running…..ughhghh). It's based around a lose group of weirdos called The Circle of Friends, run by a fella called Uncle Joe (not his real name of course). It is more like Cthulhu Now then straight DG I suppose, but DG/MJ12/etc do exist and affect whats going on a little. The Cricle of Friends was built around the standard CoC investigator gourp, coupled with my thoughts on the writings of Albert Chamus, particularily "The Plague". "The Plague" is set in a town called Oran in Algeria that is infested with bubonic plague. The narrator, a Dr. Rieux describes how the people in the town act under pressure and his own efforts to stop the plague.
Whats interesting about the book is that it is an allegory of the occupation of France. Chamus was actually part of the Resistance, fought shoulder to shoulder with ordinary people who knew evil when they saw and died in droves. The parallels of a blind populace being oppressed by a monolithic evil to CoC seemed obvious to me. The Circle can't help the characters, all they can do is dispense information and maybe offer a few small favours. What's inspiring about "The Plague", is that those who lost their humanity, who let themselves be debased by it and yet still survived were never whole people afterwards, while those who didn't fall and didn't survive, died protecting something worth protecting.
As to your opinions, I think the hazy world of the Int Comm is a neat
place to play. It seems to me that combining a world of moral greys with
psychological absolutes is a fun angle on the (to me, anyway) tired 1920's
Cthulu campaigns. Since my characters is one of the ones quoted, I feel
like I have to respond to your statements.
As for the snuffing of innocent lives, my character was admittedly in
the minority in the group, and was supposed to represent the "nasty
underside" of DG, rather than the norm. The things you weren't supposed To
think about.
I'm not slagging off you're character or your attitudes to the game. I just felt the need to disagree. A moral outlook on this sort of thing in Coc has been forced on me. The most avid player in our group had a very moral attitude to violence. The result was the characters never killed anybody that they didn't have to kill and on several occasions characters faced down armed cultists with some damn fine role-playing. I thing it is interesting to note, that this player will be taking his interview to join the army in two weeks time. In a few years he could be taking those "shoot or don't shoot" kind of decisions for real.
> Are the people who organised the deaths of thousands of innocent civilians
>in Laos, Cambodia and Vietnam* really to be trusted with that of work ?
Maybe. Depends on how you look at the conflict. I'm sure there's DG
cells that firmly believe in scorched earth, especially after meeting any
variety of chthonic baddies from the bottom of the sea/antarctic
wastes/depths of space.
I'm not going to start an argument about Vietnam.
>Does the fact that DG ostentably works for the US Govt. mean that the US
>interests are more important then the rest of humanity ?
Our interests in Britain seem to preclude that, and the fact the US
government seems to profit only marginally from DGs investigations. MJ12
are the ones looking to US interests.
At least they think they are…..on Britain, protecting Britain is in the US's best interests, after Japan and the US, the EU is the next most powerful block. With Britain as a friend, the US has a voice in the EU. Economically that's useful, and Britain are always willing to back the US in the UN. Of course DG could there for purely altruistic reasons. It depends on whether pro-US (when I say pro-US I mean pro-US capital) foreign policy is a product of THEIR manipulations or otherwise (now there's an interesting little idea).
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 00:08:44 +0100
From: "Clairr O'Connor & Kevin Honan"
EXCELLENT quote, and a good thought about DG in general.
Part of the horror of Delta Green is the very modernist spin on the
Lovecraftian SAN loss. That is… the slow and slippery slope. Not of SAN,
but of morality.
It is very much a case that to fight the monsters, one can (and perhaps
must) become one. Which is quite horrible. ;)
It's no fun if you don't put up a fight.
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 00:16:09 +0100
From: "Clairr O'Connor & Kevin Honan"
The biggest difference I've seen between NROD and DG is, as someone else
pointed out, goals. MJ-12's goal is the exploitation of this
extraterrestrial resource. They're willing to do "whatever it takes" to
ensure they maintain a monopoly on this resource. No act or crime is beyond
consideration in the perpetuation of this monopoly.
There are no rewards for being of DG, casualties are high, its a nasty job and there's no end in sight. I just get the feeling that people who would willingly seek out this kind of crap, would be more likely to take the principled point of view, resisting evil becuase it must be resisted. An unprincipled person would go join MJ12, where the rewards for the self interested are much greater.
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 20:01:20 EDT
From: Dhl9
In a message dated 98-08-06 19:01:59 EDT, you write:
H&K P4 and P9 as well as the Tanfoglio 9mm have interchangeable barrels.
You can get them and others at any gun show, leaving no record of the
purchase. Also, I have heard a rumor that the way H&K makes their rifling
renders the bullet untraceable to a specific weapon; ballistics labs can
tell immediately that the bullet was fired from an H&K weapon, but not
which specific weapon. This is only a rumor, verify before betting real
money on it
I know there was a hitman that was finally arrested in Chicago a few years back. He always used the same gun he just changed barrels. When he was arrested they found a box full of new barrels in the place he was staying.
Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 01:55:59 -0700
From: Josh Shaw <ten.pils|wahsoj#ten.pils|wahsoj>
Most semi-auto's and many revolvers have interchangeable barrels. They're assembled from identical parts. This includes the 1911A1 among others
Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 09:10:56 -0400
From: "Eric Brennan"
Whats interesting about the book is that it is an allegory of the
And that's one of the angles I was trying to hit with Agent MARCUS, was that how close to the edge can you get without falling? What is the thing that costs your humanity? Cthulu is about losing SAN after all. MARCUS was a bad dude, but he saved a crack-heads life because the guy wasn't "bad." On the other hand, if you were a weak link… I played him as someone who saw too much on the line. (And as a note, Agent WALLACE in our new campaign is even more of a stone-cold bad ass than MARCUS, but he is definitely firmly in his own moral world.)
<SNIP>
I'm not slagging off you're character or your attitudes to the game. I
I think that as a game, it's fun to try out different mindsets for characters. WALLACE, MARCUS, and the character in my Champions: The New Millenium game are all working from a different moral compass, which I think was my point… Every game, every character should be different. I wanted to play the type of guy you might run into if DG was real. (A burnout.)
I wasn't really talking about Vietnam, I was talking about the type of nasty things a DG group would run into, and what type of policy they'd take after running into Cthulu. Sorry if I didn't state that.
All in all, I think we have similar stances on gaming. I wasn't really trying to make any real-world commentary with my characters or in our games, I was just Mickey Kostmeyer gone bad. (5 points to the guy who can nme that reference, by the way…) If there were Cthulu Mythos in the world, would I want the same people who tried to get rid of Castro with an exploding cigar running the resistance? Probably not. ;)