THIS IS MATERIAL FROM THE ICE CAVE. IT HAS NOT YET BEEN FORMATTED.
From: Tolga Yanasik
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 23:18:44 +0400
> This is nothing but brilliant, Marco. As soon as I read it, I thought
> "Of *course* the Tcho-Tcho have a special fighting style!" This could
> be a fun way to introduce some HK action flick style fighting: running
> up walls and ceilings to drop on unsuspecting opponents,
> sanity-blastingly fast floor-work, etc.
Hmmm… I would think that the Tcho-Tcho style would more resemble being
stuck to the ceiling for hours and dropping on you when you came under
them through your front door, or spitting a big acidic web out of their
mouths at you, or snapping off your arm with an aikido twist [KRAK~!], or
growing extra limbs so fast it blurs the vision, venomous fangs, or just
plain spell variants that can be cast by a successful Martial Arts
(Tcho-Tcho) roll.
We don't have exact descriptions about Tcho-Tcho so I think we can bend their anatomy a little to make them nasty hand to hand fighters.
Sharp bones protrude from almost every joint. Some of them even wear spiky bandages, arm bands and bracelets. Their shoulder, elbow, wrist and knee joints will dislocate at will with a sickening sound and make surprise attacks. The kinds and number of moves and attacks by dislocating the joints are left to the imagination of the keeper.
Tcho-Tcho will feel pain while dislocating his joints, or stabbing himself or his inner organs with his sharp bones while making his blurred combo attacks. But his training and concentration will supress the pain at the time of fight.
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 15:39:56 -0700
From: "Marco S. Subias"
Hmmm… I would think that the Tcho-Tcho style would more resemble being
stuck to the ceiling for hours and dropping on you when you came under
them through your front door, or spitting a big acidic web out of their
mouths at you, or snapping off your arm with an aikido twist [KRAK~!], or
growing extra limbs so fast it blurs the vision, venomous fangs, or just
plain spell variants that can be cast by a successful Martial Arts (Tcho-Tcho) roll.
«<Sharp bones protrude from almost every joint. Some of them even wear spiky bandages, arm bands and bracelets. Their shoulder, elbow, wrist and knee joints will dislocate at will with a sickening sound and make surprise attacks. The kinds and number of moves and attacks by dislocating the joints are left to the imagination of the keeper.
Tcho-Tcho will feel pain while dislocating his joints, or stabbing himself or his inner organs with his sharp bones while making his blurred combo attacks. But his training and concentration will supress the pain at the time of fight.»>
Good ideas. I was thinking that in line with my possible "gradual transformation into a spider or spider/human hybrid, that as the SAN slowly drops and the martial skill develops, inside bits would start to shift, and the beginnings of an exoskeleton would form near the surface of the body. In addition, the forming future extra legs would start to develop, acting as more internal armor. Basically I thought that the practicioner would get progressively tougher as they became increasingly skilled and insane.
Along with this transformation the being could begin developing jumping skills, wall climbing abilities, maybe the ability to injuect venom through his fangs, and perhaps other spiderish abilitiies.
Your ideas would work well too.
From: Mark McFadden
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 01:44:31 EDT
Hmmm… I would think that the Tcho-Tcho style would more resemble
them through your front door, or spitting a big acidic web out of their
mouths at you, or snapping off your arm with an aikido twist [KRAK~!], or
growing extra limbs so fast it blurs the vision, venomous fangs, or just
plain spell variants that can be cast by a successful Martial Arts
(Tcho-Tcho) roll.
and Marco wrote:
Ah, youth. So impatient.
A master and his pupil headed on a long journey to a distant temple. A few hours from their monastery they were attacked by a large band of brigands, and had to give up their food. The pupil wanted to go back since the monastery was so close, but the master chided him for his eagerness to quit and counseled him to cultivate patience as something would inevitably come up.
But the area they traveled through had always been nearly desert, and the year had been particularly harsh. No food was to be found, and the abandoned villages they passed through had been stripped. Soon their exertions began to take their toll, and they realized that they were in the process of starving to death and they would never make it back to their monastery.
Three days after this realization, as they staggered deliriously along the trail, they came upon the bloated flyblown remains of a dog that had apparently died a few days previously. The pupil, heedless of the stench, fell upon the carcass and began to tear gobbets of maggoty flesh from it's burst abdomen and stuff them in his mouth. After a minute or so, as his stomach clenched and spasmed around the unfamiliar meal, he looked up and saw his master was seated serenely by the road and watching clouds. "Master, you shouldn't be so fastidious. This meat is the difference between life and death."
The master smiled and counseled him to cultivate patience, as something better would surely turn up.
The pupil looked at his master in shock. Then he looked at the dog's carcass. Then he looked at himself.
His stomach cramped painfully and he projectile vomited all he had eaten onto the road, then collapsed and continued to dry heave convulsively. Blinded by tears, he could only hear the sound of the masters rubbing his chopsticks together as he approached the puddle, murmuring the while "Now do you see the virtue of patience? You ate cold dog, but I shall have a hot meal."
And so it is with these Tcho-tcho martial arts moves. Slow down fellas, let's see what we can do with makeup and storytelling before we order up the SFX and CGI.
Let's see how creepy we can make them *before* the Mythos starts changing them.
They are short. They are noticeably short. Their center of balance will almost always be below yours.
They can use cover that you can't, they can move undetected under your line of sight. They can hide in ridiculously small spaces and crawl through holes too small to be considered breaches.
Teeth. Filed teeth. They don't file their teeth to make eating easier.
Imagine using biting, using the mouth, as an extra weapon in fighting. I don't mean the usual lame movie stuff; using a bite to break a hold; I mean using the head and mouth as another appendage, another hand to grip with. Imagine throwing a normal punch at his face, but he bobs his head out of the way while turning to face the arm and clamping down on the forearm/wrist with those filed teeth tearing into the muscle. Did I mention that Tcho-tcho fu adepts strengthen their jaw muscles until they are the equal of a Pit Bull?
And of course, while he's pulling you off balance by the mangled wrist, his feet and hands aren't being idle. Or imagine this during ground fighting: he has your wrist in his grinding jaws, and he gets one foot in your armpit and one on your neck and then he "lifts with his legs," pulling the arm from the socket in a spectacular manner.
I imagine Tcho-tcho fighters would eventually develop bulging cheek and jaw muscles and a supple, strong neck.
Ian Fleming had a cool trait for Oddjob. He had a thick continuos layer of callus running along the edge of his hands, across the palms and along the fingers. He had built up callus across his knuckles all the way down to the tips his fingers, which had no nails. His feet had an even thicker layer of callus, and no toenails. He was so muscular that he walked bowlegged and his arms hung away from his sides.
In addition to the usual arcane tattooing that is a given, what if the advanced adepts cut off their ears (the ears that haven't already gone missing from sparring) to rid themselves of vulnerable hand holds. Maybe even cut off their noses to enhance their bite attack, or to improve breathing when the mouth is full.
Fleming also brought up something interesting in You Only Live Twice. Sumo wrestlers can tuck their testicles back up into their abdomen. Which would explain why they can hoist each other by the G-string but no one sings falsetto as a result. In the book, Bond reflects that some agents he knows of are so morbidly afraid of damage to the groin that they compromise their cover by wearing a cup. Maybe it's a good skill to have.
In the traditional Greek wrestling form of pankrateon; which IIRC is the wrestling of the original Olympics; the competitors wrestled nude, which of course adds an additional handhold. Growing up in Naples, there was always some classic statuary around. Some of it was of Grecian wrestling. Man, being thrown by your willy has got to be one of the worst ways to get flung, judging from the expression on the statue's face. I figure the next step after cutting off their ears is to cut off their penis. To maintain their hormones and muscle mass, I figure they would tuck their testicles up in their abdomen.
I've sparred against a skilled practitioner of the Monkey style. There is a particular attack called Monkey Snatches The Apple that involves the Monkey man coming at you scuttling along at floor level chittering and bobbing and being frustratingly hard to hit, grabbing you firmly by the cojones and pulling straight down with much snap. Without fail your legs collapse beneath you. He was so good at it that he could tell you what he was going to do and still do it. I'd figure Tcho-tcho were born for that move. And of course, they probably would bite rather than grab.
I remember reading somewhere that prisoners in Siberia would slide razor blades under their skin and let it heal over. Then, despite searches and inspections, they always had a blade at hand. All they had to do was pinch the skin to pop the razor blade back out. I've heard the Yakuza do the same in prison.
Now feel free to add the spider limbs, Mothra attacks and morphing abilities.
Mark "Sanjuro" McFadden
Incidentally, did I miss a meeting? The last time we talked Tcho-tcho we were using ant metaphors and citing naked mole rats. Where did the spider theme come from?
I'm not complaining, as spiders have the cooler look and all. I just want to be on the same page.
From: Mark McFadden
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 02:19:24 EDT
Some more eeriness.
How about, adepts have their lips removed and their mouths widened to expose the filed molars. With a shaved head and no ears or nose they would look like living skulls with filed teeth.
With practice, they could open their jaws wider than ever before.
Without lips they would constantly drool. I figure they would normally wear a mask of some kind, both to conceal their features and to keep out dust; only removing it to eat or fight. Or both. Perhaps advanced Tcho-tcho fighters always eat their opponent. Really advanced ones get more than symbolic and nutritional value out of the practice.
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 05:53:52 -0400 (EDT)
From: The Man in Black
[a lot of nasty-fu snipped]
Mark "Sanjuro" McFadden
Incidentally, did I miss a meeting? The last time we talked Tcho-tcho
we were using ant metaphors and citing naked mole rats. Where did the
spider theme come from?
I'm not complaining, as spiders have the cooler look and all. I just want to
be on the same page.
Some mild SPOILERS follow:
It comes from Keith Herber's "Spawn of Azathoth," wherein the investigators go to the Andaman islands off India/Thailand and meet the Tcho-Tcho Atlach-Nacha cult. Apparantly there is a ceremony where cultists can become a spawn of Salsa-Nacho the Big Spider. A big fat bald white chick (who you have been hired to locate) has joined the cult and eventually splits open to reveal her shiny new exoskeleton. Lots of fossil spiders from pre-cambrian dreamlands that come alive with a spell and chase after investigators. Some Kewl elements about Indonesian tribal funeral huts involving platforms way up on stilts and the bugs that eat corpses "buried" there.
From: yanasik
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 13:18:56 +200
How about, adepts have their lips removed and their mouths widened to expose
Great stuff, Mark. Let the spider god add his own to this Tcho-Tcho fu. Tcho-Tcho hunts for the little orange bulbous spiders because they‘re the gift of spider god. Extremely posionous, the creatures should be handled carefully and it needs a good deal of dexterity to extract the poison. The poison when used in correct amount and with other certain compounds numbs the nerves, so the practicer of the art can smash his fist trough walls and does not feel much while cutting his own lips and nose off.
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 09:32:16 -0400
From: Jeff Ewing
[snip a bunch of excellent stuff. Jeff’s motto: you never waste any time you spend listening to an expert.]
Maybe even
cut off their noses to enhance their bite attack, or to improve breathing
when the mouth is full.
I propose that they *drill* holes in their cheeks/bridge of nose which they can open/close with muscle control. This to facilitate breathing as blood spurts from the horrendous bite wounds. I'd also imagine that they could unhinge their jaws —and still bite the hell out of you by some arcane method.
In the traditional Greek wrestling form of pankrateon; which IIRC is the
wrestling of the original Olympics;
Pankration translates something like "All powers/styles", and was boxing, wrestling and kicking.
I figure the next step after cutting off their ears is to cut off their penis.
See Dave Farnell's extremely disturbing "Tiger" (http://www.delta-green.com/ch_ADG.DF-0010.html) for a suggestion that Tcho-Tcho martial artist's willys may be able to use the "Dodge" skill all by themselves!
I've sparred against a skilled practitioner of the Monkey style [snip] And of course,
they probably would bite rather than grab.
Oh, Mama!
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 12:25:21 -0700
From: "Marco S. Subias"
In the traditional Greek wrestling form of pankrateon; which IIRC is the
wrestling of the original Olympics;
Pankration translates something like "All powers/styles", and was boxing, wrestling and kicking.
According to a recent History Channel show about the early Olympics, the games featured Boxing, wrestling, _and_ Pancration, all as separate events. Boxing was based on pucnches, wrestling on grappling, and Pancration on pretty much anything you wanted to do as an unarmed attack. As I recall attacks to the eyes and biting were prohibited, but combatants often did these things anyway.
While it has been awhile since I read it, Draeger and Smith's classic history of the martial arts mentions these as distict events/fighting styles also.
From: "David Farnell"
See Dave Farnell's extremely disturbing "Tiger"
(http://www.delta-green.com/ch_ADG.DF-0010.html) for a suggestion that
Tcho-Tcho martial artist's willys may be able to use the "Dodge" skill
all by themselves!
And their own attack (perhaps "Fist/Poke"?), too. With these "willy-mods" coming from Dark Young tentacle-tips, perhaps there could even be a STR drain? (Yerch.)
I really liked an earlier suggestion that as they practitioner goes further down the path, physical changes start. This fits in well with the Kult idea that I've sometimes used in CoC games—they closer to the Mythos you get, the more mutations build up.
But Mark is right—let's focus on non-supernatural stuff for a moment. I read a book once that had lots of illustrations from Chinese kung-fu training scrolls. All the stuff for developing those calluses and such. I can see a tcho-fu student turning his hands into nearly immobile, insensate claws by thrusting them into a bucket of sand, then hot sand, then pebbles, then stones, then pottery shards, then broken glass, and finally treating them with fire. In the end they are claws with the texture and hardness of a hoof, and not useful for anything but fighting.
I've been thinking about the name, and I kind of like "Tcho-fu" better than "Tcho-tcho fu." Rolls off the tongue easier. Also, I translated "Tcho-tcho" once a meaning "Glorious Race." Each "tcho" sounds alike in English, but the ideograms are different, with different meanings. (I had a girlfriend once named Yuan Yuan - her personal name meant "beauty," and her family name meant something like "fortunate" - can't remember exactly. Same sound, different ideograms.) So "tcho-fu" could mean "Glorious Art," or something like that. Of course, it's a corruption (a mix of Chinese and, perhaps, Aklo), but I doubt the Tcho-tcho would care.
And thanks for the plug :-) "Extremely disturbing"… Jeff, you've made my whole day!
From: Mark McFadden
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 02:31:19 EDT
I think it probably ran along the lines of an octagon Ultimate Fighting match in dirt. Some of the moves I've read about include jamming a finger up the opponents nostril and ripping. Or tearing off an ear. Eye gouging, biting and something a collegiate wrestler referred to as a "stink finger" were all standard techniques. I don't think the fights were to the death, it just worked out that way. Also, many losers preferred suicide to returning home.
I remember a statue of Heracles wrestling Antaeus. Antaeus is resisting being hoisted over Heracles head by hanging onto Little Heracles with a forehand grip. Hey-o. Time out.
ObDG: I wonder what the rules of engagement were at Skull and Bones when George Bush was nude wrestling? "Read my lips, no stink finger."
Date: 24 Jun 99 09:33:23 +0100
From: Peter Devlin
I've manfully resisted getting into this one until now. However…
SPIDER STUFF SNIPPED
Why the spider motif, apart from Atlach Nacha? You've also got Chaugnar Faugn (elephant => charging attacks, whole body slams, stamping, headbutts) and the pre-developed insect motif (pattern-based martial arts specifically aimed at many-to-one combat). You could also postulate Tcho Tcho body / sign language c.f. ninja clan languages and insect dances. Take it real far and you could go for pheremone based signalling. That little bastard could smell your fear!
OK, Sifu McFadden beat me to Monkey school kung fu moves. (BTW I was taught a variant on that nut-grabbing move as part of traditional goju / shukokai karate. There was a lady at our dojo who used to make guys wince just by performing it in kata!).
I believe there is an advanced Monkey form which teaches above the head fist strikes at the upper torso, delivered from a crouching position. Kinda hard to defend against when you are overbalancing all the time.
I reckon that Tcho-Fu would be adapted to small physiques, overbalancing opponents to get them into bad position, grappling, attacking extremities to stop them fleeing. Hand, wrist, neck, and jaw strength for grappling, headbutt attacks, probably with leaping kicks and stamping kicks would suit their physique. You also gotta take into account their surroundings, typically dense jungle. That means lots of close-in work, stylistically similar to Wing Chun rather than more ranged forms such as Shotokan karate or taekwondo.
Any of the forms involving low or ground based work would be apt for inspiration:
(1) I was thinking along the lines of the leg-based Pentjak-Silat styles that concentrate on moving on all fours to compensate for dodgy footing. I can't remember, but I'm sure I've seen a fictional RPG version called Spider Style Silat which features grapples at multiple limbs, uses the legs to assist in pinning, and has the Monkey-school groin strike.
(2) How about Kalaripayit as inspiration? An Indian form taught in secret, fighters oil their bodies to aid in escaping grapples, and it teaches a lot of vital point and healing techniques from Indian philosophy. Oh, and the goddess Kali in her form as chief war-bitch is the traditional guardian of the training hall. Students go through pretty intense training including crocodile walking on all fours which looks like absolute murder on every body muscle.
(3) Tcho-Tchos have a Burmese connection. Isn't there a Burmese art which takes many of its forms from the animal world? Bando? Y'know, python forms for grappling.
(4) Chinese dog boxing. As with Monkey school, the fighter is encouraged to take on the role of the animal. Imagine DG agents finding a little guy hiding in a corner growling who suddenly comes on like a rabid wolf. Scary!
On another note, Tcho Tcho weapons. Systemised martial arts use the same empty hand techniques with weapons too. If you make TTs into grapple freaks then they are gonna use chains, weighted ropes and the like. For edged weapons I've always had them use katar knives (Inidian punch daggers) and, most recently, a heavy razor-edged yoyo. The flexible whip sword would also make sense (go watch 'Saviour of The Soul') and maybe even that Tibetan flying guillotine thing, I can never remember it's name. Since its TTs, hwo about venomous spiders kept around the clothing instead of throwing stars. Heh!
As for body modifications:
Filed teeth is always good. Snake like jaw-dislocation would be a pretty scary thing to see in action as Tcho Tcho Lee bites down bigtime on your partners skull, crushing it like an egg. Remember the Blanka character in Streetfighter. Watch out for TTs from above. Re Mark's idea on the mouth as a fifth limb in combat, strength training should also be applied to lower back and legs for big biting pulls. And solid neck implies ability to soak up head punches and keep smiling.
How about hardened nail growth for those grabbing and ripping moves. Ever read the Remo books? Iron nail killing technique anyone? I believe cyanide causes nails to thicken.
Armour is a bit unnecessary. IMO either they should use breath gates like kung fu types, or they eat their victims to heal the damage quicker and absorb their enemies spirit/soul/whatever (if you think that's scary you should have seen my diet for Muay Thai training). IIRC insects don't care about the outcome, they concentrate on killing intruders to defend the nest.
Sumai adaptations to defend the gonads is good too but if you are making them soldier drones they aren't going to have any to defend. You could postulate that non-TT practitioners start to lose their, ahem, fertility, as they advance in prowess.
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 14:18:38 -0400 (EDT)
From: The Man in Black
(2) How about Kalaripayit as inspiration? An Indian form taught in
secret, fighters oil their bodies to aid in escaping grapples, and it
teaches a lot of vital point and healing techniques from Indian
philosophy. Oh, and the goddess Kali in her form as chief war-bitch is
the traditional guardian of the training hall. Students go through
pretty intense training including crocodile walking on all fours which
looks like absolute murder on every body muscle.
This would be the Shub-Niggurath style. Spider Style would relate to Atlach-Nacha. Both have multiple limbs. Then there is Chaugnar-Faugn Elephant Style. Now we need Lloigor/Zhar style for that tentacle based action we love so much.
From: Mark McFadden
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 16:01:27 EDT
« This would be the Shub-Niggurath style. Spider Style would relate to Atlach-Nacha. Both have multiple limbs. Then there is Chaugnar-Faugn Elephant Style. Now we need Lloigor/Zhar style for that tentacle based action we love so much. »
Do Tcho-tcho "queens" practice Shoggoth Style?
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 09:48:19 -0400
From: G M
> fictional RPG version called Spider Style Silat which features grapples
What RPG you dumbshit? Can't you people ever remember to properly ascribe?
I believe it's HERO system, Ultimate Martial Artist or the article Ancient Chinese Secrets, both by Steve Long
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 12:52:55 +0200
From: Davide Mana
Greetings.
SuperDave apparently dismissed the obvious when he wrote
Dave, Dave, Dave…..
And you're in Japan!
You wanna make me think you really bought that bit about Sumo being originally a form of hand-to-hand combat for people wearing armour? So how comes that many sumo wrestlers look like fat women?
[not that I'd go and tell them in their faces ;>]
From: "David Farnell"
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 21:38:12 +0900
Dave, Dave, Dave…..
And you're in Japan!
You wanna make me think you really bought that bit about Sumo being
originally a form of hand-to-hand combat for people wearing armour?
So how comes that many sumo wrestlers look like fat women?
[not that I'd go and tell them in their faces ;>]
OK, you got me! Tcho-tcho Queen ritual combat makes excellent sense, and is too good to resist. I was thinking that my image of the Queens was that they just lay on their bellies all day, occasionally letting a male boink them, then ripping his willie off and eating him, and now and then popping out a litter of Tcho-babies. No time for all the hard work that goes into learning a martial art. But if it's ritual, that changes my perspective.