WoD Crossover

THIS IS MATERIAL FROM THE ICE CAVE. IT HAS NOT YET BEEN FORMATTED.

Date: 9 Dec 1998 09:01:49 GMT

From: "Jacob Busby Bsc."

Some elements of World of Darkness (or Angst:The Moaning) could be adapted for DG. Perhaps instead of fighting Deep Ones, Ghouls and Mi-Go DG can be facing off against Vampires and Werewolves. I don't know a great deal about WoD but I don't think there's much in the way of hunter-related resources out there. Mage:the Ascension is about as close as you're going to get, so don't expect much back-up material from White Wolf.

For a real bit of fun make SAD a stooge set-up for MJ 12. In an effort to prevent DG getting any employment, MJ 12 set up SAD, a department devoted to "investigating paranormal phenomena" and has told the relevant bodies (police, military, governement) to pass any paranormal cases to SAD, which answers to MJ 12. Additionally MJ 12 plagues SAD with as many hoaxes as it can discover or fabricate, overwhelming the department with (mostly) valueless cases, so that it doesn't get to investigate anything with any substantial grounding. Anything information of real note is passed back to MJ 12.

Hence, if anyone ever accuses the government of not investigating "Uncle Zeke's encounter with the Deep Ones" they can be directed to the SAD, who in turn shelve the request and never get round to looking into it.

Although they could be potential allies, SAD is not going to appreciate DG "riding roughshot" all over their work. Several interesting encounters could be staged between the "official" governmental backed monster hunting department and the "unofficial" illegal monster hunting department.

No problem. Whilst you can discuss game mechanics (such as the effect on Zero SAN in the game) a lot of the discussion on the list is focussed on plot hooks, conspiracies, hypothetical questions, crossovers, etc. so your question is welcomed.

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Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 04:23:33 -0800 (PST)
From: Illuminatus Primus

Some elements of World of Darkness (or Angst:The Moaning)

Please, if you're going to use the "A"-word, say it like you mean it. Especially if this is in regard to Vamp or Wolfie.

AAAAAAAHN-gst! AAAAAAAAAAAAAHN-gst!

WoD but I don't think there's much in the way of hunter-related resources
out there. Mage:the Ascension is about as close as you're going to get, so
don't expect much back-up material from White Wolf.

Actually, there are some quite decent materials in the "Year of the Hunter" collection. I have a copy of "The Inquisition", which is great background for a Church-sponsored/DG hybrid. I've read through a friend's copy of the book on gov't agency-sponsored Hunters (whose name eludes me at the moment), and it was also chock-full of good background. It is very X-Files meets WoD. It's also, IIRC, horribly out of print. Most of the Hunter books are, sadly. I know my copy of "Inquisition" is a collector's item now.

And one more reason to own "Inquisition": the full-page illustration on page 90, with a pair of Inquisitors in full regalia (knee-length coats with nose-high collars, sword-cross emblazoned on right breast) finishing off a vampire. One wears a full helmet and is brandishing a still-lit Flamethrower From Hell(tm), whilst the second is pouring holy water on the charred and smouldering corpse, and holding a book and cross. And he's wearing killer shades. That's worth a "Hell yeah!" in my book.

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Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 09:07:58 -0600
From: "Jeffrey.B.Boles-1"

> Some elements of World of Darkness (or Angst:The Moaning)

Did I refer to CoC as The Call of Chuckie? Then I hardly think it is appropriate to denigrate what I like to play.

Cute, but for pete's sake. :)

Please, if you're going to use the "A"-word, say it like you mean it.
Especially if this is in regard to Vamp or Wolfie.

AAAAAAAHN-gst! AAAAAAAAAAAAAHN-gst!

See above. <grr>

> WoD but I don't think there's much in the way of hunter-related resources
> out there. Mage:the Ascension is about as close as you're going to get, so
> don't expect much back-up material from White Wolf.

Actually, there are some quite decent materials in the "Year of the
Hunter" collection. I have a copy of "The Inquisition", which is great
background for a Church-sponsored/DG hybrid. I've read through a friend's
copy of the book on gov't agency-sponsored Hunters (whose name eludes me
at the moment), and it was also chock-full of good background. It is very
X-Files meets WoD. It's also, IIRC, horribly out of print. Most of the
Hunter books are, sadly. I know my copy of "Inquisition" is a collector's
item now.

Umm… that was the Project Twilight I was refering to in my original post. I own ALL the Year of the Hunter books. I was not asking for stuff from White Wolf that would work in Delta Green. I was asking for ideas and opinions from people who are familiar with White Wolf and DG to give me ideas and suggestions. Its a lot of work to adapt these sort of thing, y'know. :)

And one more reason to own "Inquisition": the full-page illustration on
page 90, with a pair of Inquisitors in full regalia (knee-length coats
with nose-high collars, sword-cross emblazoned on right breast) finishing
off a vampire. One wears a full helmet and is brandishing a still-lit
Flamethrower From Hell(tm), whilst the second is pouring holy water on the
charred and smouldering corpse, and holding a book and cross. And he's
wearing killer shades. That's worth a "Hell yeah!" in my book.

It was an "okay" book. The history section was nice, but a little spartan in places and as it has become common with some White Wolf work, not well developed. Not than any of you hard core old school "CoC'ers" may care, but White Wolf is heading down hill in lots of unpleasant ways. They started out in '91 with Vampire 1st edition, trying to do something different, original, and interesting, and well… its been a long road and there have been costs.

Anyway, back to the DG.

I've started some prelimanary plans for the crossover material, and I've isolated the origins of DG, at Insmouth so many years back, is still canon. Dark mysterious beings from the depths of the Ocean are just too cool to cut out, and are compliant with the WoD. I am sure I want to keep the Karotechia, as I really dig the ancient Nazi fortress, still hanging on trying to harness those Occult forces (did anyone see those killer Millenium epsidoes last season with ODESSA?) Majestic-12 is a pickle for me, cause I know I don't want the Mi-Go behind the Greys. I'm thinking of coming up with an entirely new form of being or creature using the Greys just like the Mi-Go.

The first story arc I'm planning is kind of an introductary exploration for the two players I'm working with a the moment. One is playing a 18th century French noble woman (the player is female) who ran into a little trouble in the past. She was sent by her family to check on an eccentric inventor who the family was supporting, and it turned out he was creating something of interest to MANY third parties. While she was visiting him out in the French Countryside, things went from BAD to WORSE. She remembers a scuffle, but little else, and when she awakens? Bamm. It's 1996 and she has a strange gem-looking device on her chest.

The backstory, for those who care, is that this inventor was roughly 300 when the girl's family had started supporting him. He was a German inventor of the name Karl Brenner who was attemping to accomplish two things: find immortality and create a weapon to fight the corruptive dark forces in the world. In a way, he accomplished both. He created an alchemical device called the "Deus-Fac", which is VERY rough Latin for the God-maker [being literally "The God -make{imperative form}!-"].

So where does Delta Green and a DG Agent come in?

1996, and this woman pops out of a state of torporous slumber in the middle of a *government storage facility*. Witnessess see this dessicated strange creature break down doors and flee the building, frightened and screaming. Someone in Delta Green hears about it, word gets passed, and my OTHER player, Agent Ophelia (FBI) gets called in. She has a messed up Cell. Agent Othello is a NSA Telecom expert, but can't assist her, and the other member, Orion, is a truly messed up Physicist (too much horror over a long lifetime).

Whew.

If anyone actually read all of this email, I say to you thanks. I just got out of a big final and needed to share my ideas with some people and get feedback. If you want more info on the Deus-Fac or the other parts of the story, I'd be glad to share them. As for the new Cell O, I plan to submit the info to the DG website before too long so you can read more about them there.

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Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 09:14:50 -0600
From: "Jeffrey.B.Boles-1"

Some elements of World of Darkness (or Angst:The Moaning) could be adapted for
DG. Perhaps instead of fighting Deep Ones, Ghouls and Mi-Go DG can be
facing off against Vampires and Werewolves. I don't know a great deal about
WoD but I don't think there's much in the way of hunter-related resources
out there. Mage:the Ascension is about as close as you're going to get, so
don't expect much back-up material from White Wolf.

Actually, they have done some hunter material. I've never found it that excellent, unforuntely. One thinig they did pretty well is a book called "Halls of the Arcanum". The Arcanum is basically the Talamsuca from the Vampire Chronicles of Anne Rice. They were found circa 1890 and exist as a society of scholars and academics who investiage the supernatural for the sole purpose of documenting it and understanding it. They rarely try to destroy it or become directly invovled.

>The only paranormal X-Files sort of material that White Wolf ever put out
>was a somewhat pitiful book called Project Twilight, which detailed mainly
>a subset of the FBI called the Special Affairs Division. I currently am
>trying to decide whether it should be just scrapped entirely or somehow if
>it has existed alongside Delta Green when it was legit, and then since '70,
>quasi-illegal.

For a real bit of fun make SAD a stooge set-up for MJ 12.

Although they could be potential allies, SAD is not going to appreciate DG
"riding roughshot" all over their work. Several interesting encounters could
be staged between the "official" governmental backed monster hunting department
and the "unofficial" illegal monster hunting department.

That is an excellent idea. I'll have to ponder it, but thanks for the possible direction. The problem I've always had with SAD is they just seem, well… hokey.

No problem. Whilst you can discuss game mechanics (such as the effect on Zero
SAN in the game) a lot of the discussion on the list is focussed on plot hooks,
conspiracies, hypothetical questions, crossovers, etc. so your question is
welcomed.

Thanks. I personally MUCH prefer discussion over plot, story, mythos (as in any mythos of any game involved), and such than rules discussions. My Storytelling style is extremely free-from, and kind of a quasi-live-action with a strong storyline. I don't roleplay or GM to roll dice or use rules. I do it to particpate or take part in ripping yarns and play truly fascinating characters.

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From: Shane Ivey

Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 09:49:52 -0600

Jefferey wrote lots of stuff, then:

«If you want more info on the Deus-Fac or the other partsof the story, I'd be glad to share them. As for the new Cell O, I planto submit the info to the DG website before too long so you can readmore about them there.»

Cool, I'll be glad to see the stuff. One thing you might want to address, either in email or in the write-up, is how much of the WoD mythos and how much of the DG/Cthulhu Mythos you think is will fit in the mix. In other words, looking at an amalgam of WoD and DG/Lovecraft, it seems like you'll have a great deal of mythos inflation, with a monster or spell or god on every corner. (This has been raised before, I'm just reiterating it as a point of interest.) Will it be feasible to portray the storyline with all or most of the elements of each in place? What will be the focus of a campaign featuring primarily one or the other? What are some of the best "mixes" of the two, keeping some elements of each and discarding some of each? This stuff is good list fodder, too, for those of you who know the WoD setting better than I do (I'm largely ignorant of it, except for Vampire and what I've read about Mage from MiB on this list).

A side note: Sometime in the dim and murky future, Pagan Publishing will, on pain of death and exile, be releasing John Crowe's next opus, Children of the Twilight (or something like that), which has been alleged to be a Cthulhu Mythos take on the traditional legends of ghosts, vampires, and the like. That won't matter much til it is actually released, but it's something to be on the lookout for. I don't know if it will focus on the 1920s or if it will be easily incorporated into a modern and/or DG setting.

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Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 18:28:03 +0100

From: Davide Mana

Despite my well known distaste for White Wolf games (is a matter of attitude), there's something might as well contribute to the discussion.

Jeffrey wrote

Something that might help you, as a link between White Wolf stuff and our beloved DG is the Conspiracy X game. While the mechanics are closer to WW, the athmosphere of ConX is much closer to DG, if with some naive bits here and there.

My brother, that started a conspiracy game long ago using the Project Twilight book and a whole lot of other WW stuff as a starting point, is now slowly upgrading to ConX - more data about agencies and groups (from real life and conspiracy folklore), more options (cells, equipment, skills, aliens), less angst and no fourth rate pseudo-philosophical rantings (sorry).

If you do it slowly and gracefully, your players will not notice the transition, but will probably like the new stuff.

Suggested books - the basic Conspiracy X rulesbook and the Aegis Handbook. They are published by Eden Studios, that has a site at

http://www.edenstudios.net

where you might take a look at the whole thing.

Only problem: the ConX stuff is not cheap at all, but if you live in the US you might find at least the basic book as second hand easily.

And this is more or less it.

As soon as I will be able to grab him, I'll ask my brother exactly which WW books he is using for his game and let you know.

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Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 11:45:52 -0800 (PST)
From: Chris Womack

For a real bit of fun make SAD a stooge set-up for MJ 12.

An interesting thought, but the one problem I see here is this: what happens when DG infiltrates SAD? I mean, since DG draws agents from the FBI along with the rest of the alphabet soup, it'd be a safe bet that any department of said bureau would be reviewed regularly by DG for potential recruits. Unless MJ12 rigorously quashes such infiltration (which could make for some interesting RP in and of itself), suddenly their tool for deceipt, obfuscation, and inveiglement is being used by DG to get the inside scoop on stuff that actually is worthy of investigation. I can just picture a DG agent recruited from SAD whose job is simply to sit there sorting through all the stuff that gets dumped on SAD, sorting out the sh*t from the shinola ("a certain bouquet" takes on a whole new meaning here…) and passing the latter cases along discreetly to DG for proper handling.

What I'm getting at is thisit seems to me that SAD, as it stands, wouldn't function very well in an occasional recurring role sitting on that potential ally/potential adversary fence. They're just too tempting a target for infiltration. Unless SAD is firmly protected by MJ12's umbrellaand I thought part of the point would be to set SAD up as a stalking horse to draw attention *away* from MJ12's activities; hence close protection would sort of defeat the purpose—SAD is just a ready-made tool begging for DG to use it.

Actually, the more I think about it, the more potential I see here for a WoD/DG hybrid a la the X-Files, using precisely this agency—PC's are SAD agents caught between shadowy forces (DG) trying to use them to expose (or destroy, as the case may be) Threats from Beyond, and other, more sinister and powerful, shadowy forces (MJ12) using them to exploit/cover up/draw attention away from such TfB.

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Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 16:17:06 -0600

From: "Jeffrey.B.Boles-1"

True, very true. I don't plan (already got initial outline for the project worked out) to have it where everything in the CoC mythos is incorporated. I already have a highly evolved established World of Darkness mythology which started five years back with the published stuff from WW (not that much back then) and I've been building on it with my own creations ever since. I've got a race called the Nephilim totally based off Biblical Old Testament conjectures and readings with a healthy Occult fictional perspective thrown in. They are the descendants of angel-human hybrids from the dawn of time, and they are hunted to this day by a divine-empowered lineage back to Judah called the "Juras". I also have a real metaphysical race called the SHARD, who when they awaken to their heritage, transform themselves into the reflection of what their innermost essence is. In some cases, that can be good, but in others, it can be VERY bad. :)

Anyway, the short form is this: I plan to add elements from CoC into a established WoD continuum mythos, picking and choosing. There will be changes, and lots of stuff will probably be removed. The big thing is to work Delta Green in a manner which works on a sophisticated level.

Will it be feasible to portray the storyline with all

When the product is finished, I plan to put it on the web somewhere. I can send you some of the initial project plans and outlines if you want, just to see where I am going. Just let me know and I will email you individually. (They are Word 97 files)

Interesting. I have to say I'm a bit biased by V:tM's take on Vampires/Cainites/Kindred, and if I see one more flick/book/tale with a vampire who converts other with JUST A BITE I think I'll flip. But as someone already said about why they dislike WW, its simply "a matter of attitude". ;)

Keep the discussion going! (This is an incredible list, both for the quality of the content but also the activity of the posters!)

THIS IS MATERIAL FROM THE ICE CAVE. IT HAS NOT YET BEEN FORMATTED.

Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 16:20:50 -0600
From: "Jeffrey.B.Boles-1"

Hmm, I don't know much about Conpsiracy X. Can you fill me in a bit on the background and setting? What's the concept?

Yep, I know that site already. Eden Studios is set to start publishing and handling Armageddon, which I was vastly impressed by. Definately shades of Cthulhu in Leviathan.

I'll keep an eye out for it.

I probably will already have them, but sure, whatever he could suggest would be welcome. I hope to spend some time and really think this over in detail.

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Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 16:26:18 -0600

From: "Jeffrey.B.Boles-1"

[EVEN MORE DELETIA]

For a real bit of fun make SAD a stooge set-up for MJ 12. In an effort to
prevent DG getting any employment, MJ 12 set up SAD, a department devoted

I'm still not sure if I even want to keep SAD around. The reality of the situation is DELTA GREEN has been unofficial since '70, and thus there has been no government agency acting in any capacity to investigate the supernatural. SAD does fill that whole as an underfunded organization that is trying to figure things out.

The bad side is I never cared for the origins of SAD. It all involves someone witnessing a vampire get up from being shot in the '40s or '50s and setting out on a lifelong campaign within the FBI to answer questions about what the thing was. Its very Elliot Ness feeling, which of course ir more the '20s. I'll have to dig the book out of my collection and check just when the attack happened.

SAD is actually in the WoD somewhat under the Technocracy and the Kindred (thats Vampires) collective thumbs. The last director of the SAD was institutionalized as a raving lunatic. Sheesh, now what does that sound like fellas? :)

Hmm. Perhaps if I was working with a larger group, which may change. At the moment I have two players for the initial outing, and one is playing the previously mentioned 18th Century lass.

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Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 00:54:34 +0100

From: Davide Mana

Delta Green Lite ;->

Without giving away too many twists and background mysteries: the game - set in the contemporary world - features an unofficial, illegal conspiracy of Feds and "friendlies" (collectively called Aegis) keeping an eye on the weird, the supernatural and the uncanny, and dating back from the '20s. These guys can tap the govt. resources (one of the best bits in the game) to equip independent cells and carry on their missions - incidentally, SAD by comparison looks like a sad bunch of underequipped amateurs.

The setting is well balanced and uses a lot of familiar stuff to create a subtly unpleasant background. ConX sometimes clearly goes for an X-Files/Se7en/generally hip attitude that can sound naive to Delta Greeners, but as I said, at least it avoids many of the extremes that often mar the Wolf's booty.

All the classical props from the conspiratorial folklore are covered - alien abductions, black elicopters, MJ12, the Dallas Incident, Waco, and what. Aliens seem to be the main course at the moment, with three groups (Greys, Saurians and Nordics as per canonical UFO folklore) being covered by a sourcebook each. The supernatural proper gets quite some coverage, too, as "friendly" groups include students of the Paranormal and Magic, Illuminati-like conspirators and Cryptozoologists, each with its Sourcebook ready or forthcoming (the Crypto book is not half bad, actually!); a supernatural oriented campaign can be set up pretty fast.

No Mythos, of course.

The game system looks a lot like the WW system (that in its turn looks suspiciously like Shadowrun with D10 replacing D6) and conversion are not too dramathic. You get proper cinematic combat rules, a nice share of realistic (sort of) equipment and assorted stuff, tons of character templates, and a system that's geared for normal guys and not for monsters, with normal guys fitted in as an afterthought.

All in all, the game delivers the goods it set forth to deliver and does not try to imprint on you a worldview, which is fine. As I already said, it's worth a look.

Don't know the Armageddon game (saw it around but was not like my kind of thing). On the other hand, Eden seems to be set to publish a few nice things.

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Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 19:04:49 -0500
From: "R. Menzi" <moc.nasa|iznem#moc.nasa|iznem>

Some elements of World of Darkness (or Angst:The Moaning) could be adapted for DG. Perhaps instead of fighting Deep Ones, Ghouls and Mi-Go DG can be facing off against Vampires and Werewolves. I don't know a great deal about WoD but I don't think there's much in the way of hunter-related resources out there. Mage:the Ascension is about as close as you're going to get, so don't expect much back-up material from White Wolf. «<

I find that the WoD beasties work best when they focus mainly on the "lesser Supernaturals" (LS). This is prevents the tendancy to overpower the baddies and thus require the goodie to match them. Besides, the horror genre is served better when the controling beings don't play the overt role. Finding out that a congressman is related to creatures that go between animal and human shapes, or that a lobbyist has cheated death by giving his will over to an ageless monstrosity.

Majestic-12 is a pickle for me, cause I know I don't want the Mi-Go behind the Greys. I'm thinking of coming up with an entirely new form of being or creature using the Greys just like the Mi-Go. «<

I handled the MJ-12 issue by using it to get rid of the cheezy P entity (Pentex). At it's heart, the idea of a corporation with a goal of detroying the world is damn stupid and implausable to my mind; I always like my baddies to have their reasons, understandable ones. I kept the idea of a corporate corruption around the world, but as a secondary effect, not a goal in itself. Through the Steering Committee, I disolved Pentex into the Military industrial complex. The Mi-Go are the best rationale for a corruptive presence in S. America, using the Greys' pawns to defend one of the last Mi-Go mining regions. To that end, the cookbook has been used to infuse volunteers from the US military/mercenary resources with "alien biological structures," or just improving on the natures design with mixed results. Fomori are easy to bring in that way. Perhaps Gulf War Syndrome can be a tie in.

I tend to avoid Mage in these crossovers, except through the Sorcerer hedge magic systems. The idea of Paradox, that humanity matters in the grand scheme, seems somehow against the desperation of Lovecraftian horror. The idea that human popular belief could kill off/drive out the ugly nasties is completely against the grain. Also, even if the players see it as only a mechanic for effects, limited by other mechanics (I already expressed my opinions on Paradox), the idea of more than few human reality warpers walking around is a bit too much.

Maybe as deranged cultists might have his mind shredded into enlightenment, but this "Hey! Magick works!" shit is a bit weak. If you see past the "reality" to the "truth" you should no longer be able to pass for sane! Anyway, they make great master minds, though, but the kult systems for enlightenment/insanity seems better for the horror genre, especially if you want have a PC get a taste. (Don't let it slip to your CO, lest you be found "compromised.")

If you don't except the Mage version of the world, that it is what humanity believes it to be, than not only does the limit on "Magick" (Oooo, they spell it with a "K") disappear, but so does the rationale for this "Ascension War" (one of the lousiest story elements I've ever kill a game). Frankly, without Paradox or the Ascension War, mages are practically mini Alzises of varying power. Of course, I could make up a limiting factor that wouldn't involve elements that disrupt the feel of my games, but I'd rather let the jump to mini-godhood be just that, except that a character (preferablely NPC) fits less and less well with the world, but what can you do. Man isn't supposed to understand the Mi-Go point of view. Generally, Mage is the hardest because it has so much cosmology built into the mechanics. If you can deal with the WoD without involving it, or at least not encountering real mages, you're game world will be much easier to run.

Once again, MJ-12 works well as a otherwise independant organization manipulated by beings that are not native to earth. The organization makes a good M/I complex version of Pentex; having a descent rationale goes a long way to improving that cardboard cut-out of a villan. Of course, the powerpuppies will still be on a crusade to destroy them, mainly by association with their benefactors, but that can be seen as a strange tenet o f a monsterous faith. Generally, if you cut down on the volume of acurate info about and contact between the supernaturals, you should have little trouble. Play up the role of (WoD) ghouls, kinfolk, sorcerers, mediums, fomori, whathaveyou, and don't rush to give your players a major supernatural (MS) as the bad guy. A cunning and detailed ghoul or revenant, or fomor makes a great individual villan, especially if you playthem with subtlety.

The Mi-Go are fine as foreigners to this world and don't follow the tendancies we've always seen in this backwater part of the universe. Perhaps seeing things that break all the rules (well, they'd actually be axioms and corallaries) would be a drain on that willpower trait?

One thinig they did pretty well is a book called "Halls of the Arcanum". The Arcanum is basically the Talamsuca from the Vampire Chronicles of Anne Rice. They were found circa 1890 and exist as a society of scholars and academics who investiage the supernatural for the sole purpose of documenting it and understanding it. They rarely try to destroy it or become directly invovled. «<

Man, haven't you heard? Golden Dawn is the shit for that theme! I have to say, the Arcanum came across real dry and rather boring. They already know about all these various beings, and yea, they have some info wrong, but they seem to not mind sharing it among themselves. As far as making an interesting setting goes, GD beat the pants off of it.

The problem I've always had with SAD is they just seem, well… hokey. «<

That's because it is. I scraped it in favor of the DG/MJ-12 paring. They aren't always at odds, you know. Sometimes the boys at MJ-12 want DG to peek into the doings of the greys, just as long as their assistance can't be traced.

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Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 01:42:30 +0100 (MET)
From: Andreas Melhorn

Anyway, the short form is this: I plan to add elements from CoC into a established WoD continuum mythos, picking and choosing. There will be changes, and lots of stuff will probably be removed. The big thing is to work Delta Green in a manner which works on a sophisticated level.«

Some time ago I was also thinking about incorporating some Mythos stuff into my own V:tM campaigne. I didn't really plan anything but I have some generel ideas how I would like to do it. I think you already have this sort of ideas by yourself so I don't know if this will help very much, but still …

First idea was that *all* gods in the WoD are based on Cthulhu beings. Christianity is something that only exists because 'it'd be so nice if anybody cared'. The same is true for the evil 'gods' (Seth, Satan and stuff). All this developed out of missunderstandings. How that happended isn't clear. Probably 'Narly' invented every single religious belief in this planet (look at the insane things that were done in the name of one or the other god). Probably religions are just attempts of the human mind to bring 'sense' into the human life. Probably all religions are just 'translations' of the human mind: it changed the Mythos to something it could grasp without going insane.

True Faith is a state of mind. Baali do not worship Satan but try to bring the Mythos Gods (back) to Earth. The same could be true for the Followers of Seth (they just have another cultural background). You get the idea.

And DG fits easily in, I think. You just have to rewrite the background of DG 'a little bit' They had contacts with Deep Ones, other Mythos beings and vampires, werewolves, … The result is the formation of a conspiracy to destroy all supernaturel threats of humankind: DG. (As I said, I don't have any specific ideas about that matter — yet.)

MJ-12 is more difficult, because they don't want to fight the supernaturel beings but want to use it for their own ends. It must be decided what they know and what vampires (etc.) know about them. After that it shouldn't be too difficult to recreate MJ-12 for the DG/WoD crossover.

You have got angels and whatnot in your campaigne so I guess you don't like this idea very much, but even the beings you invented would fit somehow into this scheme. But of course they wouldn't be real angels anymore.

These were my ideas.

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Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 13:04:45 -0600
From: Jeffrey Bryan Boles

Anyway, the short form is this: I plan to add elements from CoC into a established WoD continuum mythos, picking and choosing. There will be changes, and lots of stuff will probably be removed. The big thing is to work Delta Green in a manner which works on a sophisticated level.«

Different perspectives and the like only help to flesh out my own ideas further.

Mmm. The funny thing for me is that viewing the cosmology of the Triat in the WW perceptions of the universe scream CoC mythos derivative. The etire Wyrm basis is in the ideas of Lovecraft, just dumbed down for the furry kiddies (i.e., Werewolves). When you consider PenTex (the Wyrm controlled corporation in North America) was started after someone dug up a Wyrm entity from underneath the earth on some island…

Only the Baali who have come into existence in the latter half of this Millenium are Satan happy. The Clan was originally established as worshipers of something they called the "Children". These beings existed in the darkness and the void before creation, and when the light of creation was borne they burrowed under the earth in pain and fury.

As for the Setities, they are too much corruption worshipers to be distinctly based around any one god or being.

I've got plenty, but I'd be glad to hear yours on the matter.

Wrestling with the MJ-12 situation has allowed me some perspective on the question, and I think I have some ideas that will place them. I'll give you the specifics when they are all worked out, if you're interested.

And why wouldn't I? Angels could be servitors of *anything*, and then just appear as angelic like beings for those who wanted to see them. I try to play a hard line, where I never categorically state the a Judeo-Christian entity or being such a Yahweh exists at the top of the comsic food chain, and yet I don't want to state he doesn't. Angels exist, and people with True Faith in Christ ianty can work miracles once in a blue moon. On the other hand, so can others with significant belief in their faith systems. Armageddon, which I mentioned somewhere in this thread previously, has an interesting concept where Heaven and Hell are having to band together to some degree to fight off a Cthuhlu-esquE being called Leviathan that has manifested and is destroying reality as humanity knows it in the near future.

Angels existing does not make anything certain.

Andthank you for them.

top


Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 14:56:15 +0100

From: Juergen Hubert

I tend to avoid Mage in these crossovers, except through the Sorcerer
hedge magic systems. The idea of Paradox, that humanity matters in the
grand scheme, seems somehow against the desperation of Lovecraftian horror.
The idea that human popular belief could kill off/drive out the ugly
nasties is completely against the grain. Also, even if the players see it
as only a mechanic for effects, limited by other mechanics (I already
expressed my opinions on Paradox), the idea of more than few human reality
warpers walking around is a bit too much.

How about this: Humanity has, throuout the ages, created protective barriers against the realities of the universe - and today's consensual reality is just the latetest of these. Each mage uses his world view as his protective shield, but when it clashes with the views of others, Paradox happens.

This makes Paradox not a cosmic law, but a human frailty. Beings that sprung from the human imagination - mythical creatures, like faeries, changelings, unicorns, dragons and such - are effected by it, while true inhuman races - Deep Ones, Mig-Go, and all the others - do not.

This also impies Mythos involvement with the creation of the vampires and werewolves - and the latter ones apparently are able to tear through humans' protective barriers with their delirium!

THIS IS MATERIAL FROM THE ICE CAVE. IT HAS NOT YET BEEN FORMATTED.

From: "Charles L. Apperwhite"

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 14:43:21 -0500

I just finished readng the Delta Gree/WoD Crossovers section of the Ice Cave, and I thought I would add my own two cents worth. I have been a player of the WoD games ever since Vampire first came out, although our longest running campaing was in the Werewolf setting. Its in that setting that you can find many lovecraft-like elements. For example, if you have the Book of the Wyrm (I only have 1st edition), you'll find some of their equilivants of Great Old Ones or, as they call them, the Maeljin Incarna. The Black Spiral Dancers totems of coruption are also mythos like (the Dark Fungus; Relshab, the "Faceless Eater", and G'louogh, the "Dance or Corruption").

There was also one other Werewolf supplement that could be useful in a CoC/Delta Green type setting: "Chronicle of the Black Labrinth". It was presented in the form of a 'real' book published by a Alistair Crowley-like character called Fraeter I*I. It is a collection of short- story like 'historical' segments. Of particular interest is a section in the back of the book that presents the rituals for entry into the mysteries of the Black Labryinth. This is very much like a CoC cult.

A small section of SPOILER INFORMATION follows.

If I were going to include elements of Delta Green into the World of Darkness (instead of vice/versa), I would keep the data concerning the formation of Majestic-12 and Delta Green (perhaps the deep ones are wyrm-corrupted Rokea [werwsharks], or a race of true-breeding fomori). The Mi-Go, instead of being from another planet, are instead entities from the deep umbra. The Karotecha could easily be worked in, as group of neo-nazi mages and their acolyte followers (only the three leaders need be mages, to keep the power level down). Werewolf already has a Fate-like organization in the Seventh Generation (from "Rage Across New York"). Again, I would only make the leaders of the various castes mages (give them an Arete equal to their Gnosis, and a total number of pips in spheres equal to the total gifts given for each character. Give them the same foci as the Order of Hermes, with their specialty sphere being either Spirit or Entropy).

To avoid confusing conflicts, I would simply replace the Special Affairs Division (from "Project Twilight") with Delta Green; i.e. the government has no official paranormal investigators. As far as other elements from the World of Darkness, I would downplay Mage because of power level considerations (most of the Traditions are concerned with combatting the Technocracy, and the Technos consider the Traditions a bigger threat then any Nephandi (evil mages). Although I am far from owning all of the supplements, it seems that most of the information contained in the various Year of the Hunter supplements can be used (espically "Project Twilight' and "The Arcanum"). The Kindred are too concerned with their own power struggles, and the possible coming of Gehenna, to be concerned with extra-dimensional evils, Wraiths are totally removed from the world, and Changelings have their own court intrigues to worry about (although I suppose that some unseelie changelings could end up worshipping various aspects of the wyrm). [Personally, I found the Changeling setting the weakest of the five settings, and have never played it]. As you can see, I think that the various shapeshifters would have the most interaction with characters in a DG/WoD game, although they will probably keep a low profile, lest DG turn their attention to them as a paranormal threat. Keep Pentex, as this corporation seeks to hasten the time when the "stars are right". Excellent pentex sourcebooks are "Book of the Wyrm" and "Monkeywrench Pentex".

Other random notes on Wod/CoC/DG: I have read complaints in this list about the WoD being to angst-ridden. This is true in some cases, espically Vampire (I and a friend reached our fed-up point in a Vamp campaign when several other characters, low on blood, attacked a family stalled on the road), and Wraith (you start out dead, and it just gets worse!). However, one of the reasons I initially did not want to play any CoC adventures was from hearing the 'horror' stories of characters quickly meeting untimely ends, due to insanity or being torn to shreds by some slavering horror. I put a lot of thought into creating a character, and to see one die off so quickly would have been a dissapointment. Luckily, I played with a Keeper who was more into telling a story; he almost never used the rules or a published scenario, and pretty much let us get away with anything we wanted (in his version, it was totally my own character and one other who raided Innsmouth. Silly, yes, but enjoyable with a large grain of salt). As for rules systems, I have played everything from heavy number-crunchers (like Hero system, or Traveller: The New Era [starship construction particularly]), to minimalist systems like WoD (in the Werewolf campaing, all of the combat-oriented werewolves soon began to look alike stat wise). I must admit that, from the few times I have actually used CoC rules, I fould them dissapointing. Thats why I haven't bought the base CoC rulebook, but am attempting to convert Delta Green to another gaming system, Alternity (you may have seen the post earlier. Sorry for the traffic-jamming attachment in that post). I have found that, as long as the Keeper/Gamemaster/what-have-you knows how to run an interesting game (and knows the system he is using), it doesn't really matter what rules system is used.

Well, my two cents seems to have inflated to a full dollar, so I'll sign off for now.


Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 19:49:54 -0400
From: Daniel Harms

There was also one other Werewolf supplement that could be useful in a

This comes highly recommended from an Origins award winner (me, and if I've got it, I might as well run it into the ground). It's got some Robert E. Howard refs. for those who want a little orthodoxy, and is one of the most genuinely creepy books I've seen. If you see it at the local game store, at least take a quick peek.


Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 20:25:34 -0400

From: "R. Menzi"

This comes highly recommended from an Origins award winner (me, and if I've got it, I might as well run it into the ground). It [WWGS'_Chronicle_of_the_Black_Labyrinth_]'s got some Robert E. Howard refs. for those who want a little orthodoxy, and is one of the most genuinely creepy books I've seen. If you see it at the local game store, at least take a quick peek. «<

Oh yes, I also highly recommend it. You've seen my comments on using the DG background in the WoD from the Ice Cave. I'd keep the Mi-Go as aliens, but change up the ideas of how the various worlds work. The (Werewolf) umbra might do well combined with the Dreamlands, as the power puppies have some similarities with the (CoC) Ghouls. The strange dimentions (as in geometric planes 90 degrees from everything else, not Sliders(tm)-style alternate worlds) from which the Mi-Go come are just a facet of the universe that usually doesn't come up, as everything native to this region of space exists in only the three. The hypergeometry of the Mythos should still work normally, rather than simply bastardize some WoD explanation for it.

As I wrote so long ago, the structure of Mage carries a shitload of baggage and would be better avoided if you don't want to make your game into an eventual Acention War, with all the baddies pidgeonholed into nephandi/deep umbra entities. The idea that the rules of the world are the product of some human communal decision just doesn't seem to fit all that well with the backseat position humanity gets in the Lovecraftian-themed games. Humans (individual ones) might impede the progress of the various Mythos beasties, but humanity sure isn't going to hold them back. The fact of the matter (in the DG setting) is, the stars are going to come right, and at that point, all the blissful ignorance in the world (or just this rather insignificant one) won't mean jack. All in all, it's a very different theme than the WoD, in which the world is the one with real beings in all three dimentional space, an, in fact, the whole vastness of the universe was invented (rather recently) by our cummunal decision that it be so. Yawn.

One of the strange and interesting (and interesting to play through) facts of Lovecraftian horror is that people don't matter. Other things were here before us, and other things will be here when we are all being digested. DG is based on the fact that other things are here right now, and what your characters are going to do about it. I'd say that, sans Mage, the WoD and CoC can mesh very well, in theme and style. If you want mages, make them godlings and leave it at that. If you want something to replace the 'Traditions vs. the Technocracy' themes among the godlings, check out _Unknown_Armies_ (another great Tynes game) for some ideas of how to replace WWGS' rather annoying attempt to give their game an element of conflict.

Now, lets see if all my Mage-bashing was enough to perform a Summon: MiB spell…


Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 16:41:35 +0200
From: Juergen Hubert

I think that the Cthulhu Mythos _can_ work with the World of Darkness, even with Mage. But if this is supposed to work, the main thing to remember is this:

All the "standard" supernatural inhabitants of the World of Darkness (vampires, werewolves, mages, etc.) have a perception of their own importance in the grand scheme of things that is AT LEAST as inflated as that of normal humans.

And it is probably a lot more inflated than that.

Let's start with mages: They believe that the physical form of the universe is created by the consensual beliefs of humanity, that they (the mages) alone are able to see the grand scheme of things, and that paradox is what happens if the consensual human view of reality is opposed to their magic (no, I WON'T spell magic with a "k"…).

But from the Mythos POV, we know that the perception, and the understanding of reality by humans is ultimately limited. "Consensual Reality" is just a big mass hallucination that allows humanity to dwell in some corner of the real universe without going stark raving mad immediately.

And Paradox, then, isn't some kind of universal law, but an inbuilt limitation of the inferior human mind. No human can comprehend reality and stay sane, which nicely explains Marauders…

And all the real Mythos entities are, of course, completely unaffected by Paradox. They can stomp through humanity's "consensual reality" without blinking a sensory organ. All the fabulous creatures that mages know, however, sprung up from the human imagination, and so they are just as vulnerable to Paradox as mages.

And Mythos entities, by their very existence, violate either consensual reality, or the personal magical beliefs of a mage. But since both of these are purely human constructs, which are designed to protect our human minds from the real universe, the human minds who encounter these entities suffer - they loose their sanity.

Something similar can be encountered in the Delirium that the werewolves invoke when their Crinos forms are seen by ordinary humans. This suggests to me that the origin of the garou is linked to the mythos - their own legends might talk about a being named Gaia that charged them with the protection of the Earth, but it is far more likely that they are simply some discarded experiment of the Mi-Go or another Mythos race or being. Not that they would ever believe that, of course - th garou are as prone to self-deception as humans, and much of their magic, and most of the spirits they deal with stem from the same consensual reality as humans…

So what about the Wyrm? Either he also stems from humanity's consensual reality - archetypes of evil and corruption can be found in any culture - or it, too, is a Mythos entity. In the latter case, it should be a non-sapient being, an idiot force that warps everything it comes into contact with. It doesn't actually _intend_ to destroy Gaia - that is just some insignificant side effect of its existence. Of course, that means that Black Spiral Dancers are deluding themselves about the true nature of their patron - and the universe as a whole - as much as any other humans…

Vampires are an easy fit, since they don't have as much cosmological background mythology as the others. But it is rather likely that they've got the story about Caine's fall all wrong, and that the First Vampire is just another discarded experiment by some Mythos entity…

Wraiths could be some energy emanations of people that continue to exist after their death, but all that business with their shadows and the specters and other agents of Oblivion(TM) probably means they are just another manifestation of humanity's collective unconscious. People probably don't have souls in the universe of the Mythos, just some energy patterns that likely dissolve after their death, but humans have always believed in ghosts, so it seems likely that the collective unconscious would create some "spiritual copies" of dead people…

And changeling are definietly nothing more than manifestations of the collective unconscious. Since they are even more "unreal" than normal human reality, any encounter with Mythos beings or forces would likely be absolutely devastating for them…

Any comments?


Date: 22 Apr 99 16:09:21 America/Fort_Wayne
From: Ronald Stelly

«« Let's start with mages: They believe that the physical form of the universe is created by the consensual beliefs of humanity, that they (the mages) alone are able to see the grand scheme of things, and that paradox is what happens if the consensual human view of reality is opposed to their magic (no, I WON'T spell magic with a "k"…). »»

Great work on the censensual vs Mythos reality!

Kudos!

I'd like to throw my 2 cents in on MAGE and Delta Green crossover. I wish to bring up the idea that MJ-12 is the Technocracy. Long ago, the technocracy was created to protect the mortals and to create a form of magic the people could believe in. Hench technology. The idea holds up under a few levels of scrutiny. First, I learned from Demon Hunter X, that the far east technocrats are secular from their western counterparts. So while the east is called "the zaibatsu" (what an original name!), the west could very well be "majestic 12".

From Project Twilight, they set up the NSA as the technocratic convention known as the New World Order. There are a few others that fit into the majestic tree. NWO is MJ-2 & MJ-3. The Syndicate is MJ-1. The Progenitors are MJ-8. Etc, etc, etc. For my gaming group (who has yet to find out) this puts a new face on familiar villans. And adds a bit of commonality which some will find terrifying. When something familiar becomes alien, thats a precept of terror.

Now comes the issue of magic.

The technocrats dont believe in magic. They belive in their gizmos.

They dont incant fireballs, they reach for their plasma blasters.

You can ignore WW mage atts like arete and spheres. This I favor since I found a passage in WOD: Sorcereer which said that from a players stand-point, they should never be able to tell the difference in magi!

Well since MAGE is a game about belief and paradigm, this pretty much explains what happened to MJ-12. For all that time, they were building a belief system and got trapped in it. They still haven't noticed.

The utlimate price of hubris.

As GM, you can use a minimal or a maximum technocrat presence.

Adolph Lepus could be a mage, or just work for them.

Dr. Varney could be a Progenitor!

And finally. Most of the technocratic toys are more like stuff from Tommy Lee Jones & Will Smith in MIB. But its easy to say "NO" about things like HITMARK Vs (the terminator) and red flashy things. Remember, MJ-12/Technocracy has been fighting against the alien horrors. Now they think they can get a sweet deal with the human-like greys. If only they knew…

Well, I should get ready for the flak!

Fhtahgn all agents and friendlies!


Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 14:56:31 -0400
From: Daniel Harms

[snip]

Lots of good ideas here - but there's one fundamental flaw in all of this. If MJ12 is the Technocracy and therefore devoted to maintaining consensus reality, why are they teaming up with beings from Outside like the mi-go who challenge it? Thoughts?


Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 10:53:00 +0200

From: Juergen Hubert

Thanks for the praise, but I'd like to say something about the "MJ12 as part of the Technocracy" idea:

I think it would be much better if the two were seperate entities. The Technocracy likes to believe that it is in control of the Earth, but in the face of the Mythos, this is just another instance of human hubris. Besides, they certainly wouldn't make deals with "reality deviants", whether they look reasonably similar to humans or not.

Sooner or later, of course, the Technocracy will find out about the MJ12 deals. First they will notice that some government agencies have more advanced technology than they are supposed to ("Hey, where did they get this stuff? We didn't authorize this!"). They will certainly be mystified, especially since these technologies, being imparted from the Mythos, are not susceptible to Paradox, unlike the more advanced equipment of the Technocracy. And when they finally learn the truth, panic will set in - the MJ12 conspiracy is too deep in the various government agencies to be wiped out casually (after all, the Technocracy needs those government agencies for their own plans…). And while the Technocracy leadership argues in their horizon realms what to do, the grunts back on Earth have to deal with law after law of nature crumbling in the face of the Mythos…


Date: 25 Apr 99 07:58:44 America/Fort_Wayne
From: Ronald Stelly

And while the Technocracy leadership argues in their horizon realms what to do, the grunts back on Earth have to deal with law after law of nature crumbling in the face of the Mythos… ««

You know what that would mean!

The Technocracy is doomed with a capital "D".

Just another evolutionary cul-de-sack on the road of extinction!

Poor hairless-monkeys…

I guess NSA really WILL stand for "No Such Agency"

It's good to laugh!


From: "JimmieBise,Jr"
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 21:37:55 -0400

Hmm…that interested me. I've heard from a good friend of mine and member of this list (yes, Eric, you can take your bow now) that the new Line Developer for Vampire has just about done away with a good deal of the angst, "woe-is-me", "vampires are tortured dreamers and really, really cool" and made it more hard-edged and…well….evil!

Is anyone who is up on the line able to confirm this? If so, I may need to dust off a certain friend's Vampire goodies and see what kind of deviltry I can cause.


Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 12:52:29 +0200

From: Juergen Hubert

You know what that would mean!
The Technocracy is doomed with a capital "D".
Just another evolutionary cul-de-sack on the road of extinction!
Poor hairless-monkeys…
I guess NSA really WILL stand for "No Such Agency"

In the end, it all amounts to the same in the face of the Mythos. The Technocracy might talk about "making the world a safer place for humanity", and the Traditions might talk about "Destiny", but in the end, their destiny, and that of humanity as a whole, is extinction. There is nothing in the future for us except for death and coleopterans.


Date: 27 Apr 99 13:35:04 America/Fort_Wayne
From: Ronald Stelly

In the end, it all amounts to the same in the face of the Mythos.

But what about the dreamlands. Humans would still exsist in the dreamlands. Which in White Wolf is a portion of the spirit world (umbra).


From: "gerald mckelvey"
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 10:21:42 -0400

But at least we still have cheesy poofs!

All hail the Cheesy Poof!

Sorry, but that last comment was just too depressing…..


From: "David Farnell"

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 09:36:49 +0900

But what about the dreamlands. Humans would still exsist in the
dreamlands. Which in White Wolf is a portion of the spirit world (umbra).

Check the Ice Cave for a whole lotta discussion of the post-Endtimes Dreamlands. A very contentious issue…

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